France gives the EU a thumbs down

Ed

Philosopher
E
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I really don't get what is going on, enlightenment is called for. Could it have to do with this?

On the contrary, almost every Euro-poll has produced a No vote, whether in Ireland, Sweden or Denmark. On any normal measure, the EU has lost the confidence of its citizens. But the project was never meant to be democratic. From the first, the EU's founding fathers understood that it needed to be immune to public opinion. T

he genius of Jean Monnet and Robert Schuman was to design a system in which supreme power was wielded by unelected officials, and in which the peoples were presented with a series of faits accomplis. When, in 1992, they got their first No vote in Denmark's referendum on Maastricht, our masters were too set in their ways to consider respecting the result, and so pushed on regardless. They will do the same thing today.

Telegraph, today.
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Unelected officials that "know best"?
 
YES!!!!

Truly a wonderful day. May there be many more rejections like it in the future! Dare we even hope that the EU itself might break up? Probably not, but fingers crossed...
 
Re: Re: France gives the EU a thumbs down

Seismosaurus said:
YES!!!!

Truly a wonderful day. May there be many more rejections like it in the future! Dare we even hope that the EU itself might break up? Probably not, but fingers crossed...
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I'm afraid that the best this can do is slow down the process. France will demand concessions in the charter and then push the revised charter vote through the legislature -- not leaving it to silly voters next time. A little thing like popular votes going against it is not going to stop this.

It may allow England some breathing room for a bit, though, and I hope it does. Y'all may not be too keen on joining when the charter may be amended in Fance's favor (in unknown ways) in the future.
 
So is the end result a benevolent dictatorship? Is this the nature of social progressionism?
 
Re: Re: Re: France gives the EU a thumbs down

NoZed Avenger said:
I'm afraid that the best this can do is slow down the process. France will demand concessions in the charter and then push the revised charter vote through the legislature -- not leaving it to silly voters next time. A little thing like popular votes going against it is not going to stop this.

It may allow England some breathing room for a bit, though, and I hope it does. Y'all may not be too keen on joining when the charter may be amended in Fance's favor (in unknown ways) in the future.
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and in the Netherlands' favor, and Poland's, and ....
 
What this does show is the inherent hypocracy of the whole European "project" (don't you just lurve that phrase).

While everyone waxes on about Europeans becoming closure and the EU works to for the best of the whole these things are always voted down (by all countries) on the basis that constituent countries don't get to impose their own desires/beliefs on others.
 
Drooper said:
What this does show is the inherent hypocracy of the whole European "project" (don't you just lurve that phrase).

While everyone waxes on about Europeans becoming closure and the EU works to for the best of the whole these things are always voted down (by all countries) on the basis that constituent countries don't get to impose their own desires/beliefs on others.
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Always the same error: ascribing a hidden agenda to what is due to human nature ...


(It's unfair, it should be mine, mine, mine .....)
 
Re: Re: France gives the EU a thumbs down

Flo said:
relatives of self-declared experts who "know best" what Europeans and their politicians think and should do ...
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And these things become law, don't they?

Tell me...what exactly is the difference between a benevolent socially awre state, ruled by fiat, that purports to have the best interests of "the people" at heart and conservative Islam?

What is the ultimate goal? From this side of the atlantic it appears to be a riskless society. Lord, the grandchildren of the resistance fighters who risked their lives fighting the Nazis being told how many hours they can work? WTF?
 
Oh what a joyous day! Chirac finally receives the bloody nose he deserves, from the French. :D :D :D

Seismosaur, I don't think this is going to lead to the break up of the EU, more's the pity, but it's a step in the right direction.

I'll be interested to see whether Blair and his mostly Europhile friends will allow the British their say, or slime around in the background making seedy deals so that they get their own way.

By the way, did you notice that Tony is having another free holiday in Tuscany? The freeloading scumbag.
 
I think the good news is that it allows all countries to voice their opinion of the constitution without the threat of being ostr\acized. I would bet on "no" from at least 5 countries including UK and the Netherlands.

CBL
 
I suspect one of the problems is that this mega-document is generally refered to in the press as a Constitution. I'm not sure about the French, but this word would scare the hell out of a lot of Danes.

Officially, this document is a Constitutional Treaty. Just to clear things up. ;)

A Constitution should be nowhere near 500 pages long. It shouldn't even be 10% of that.

I don't blame the French for voting No. Who the hell can expect the average person to read a 500 page document written in legalise, and then expect them to understand it?

I haven't read it either. So, I stick with the highlights I can find in newspapers, such as:

* Permanent EU president to replace six-month rotating presidencies

* EU foreign minister to conduct common foreign policy

* Qualified majority voting in most areas with vetoes limited

* Commission to be reduced to 15 with 10 non-voting associates

* Policy areas covered by European Parliament up from 34 to 70

* Legally binding Charter of Fundamental Rights

On the face of it, this doesn't look so bad.
 
DanishDynamite said:
I suspect one of the problems is that this mega-document is generally refered to in the press as a Constitution. I'm not sure about the French, but this word would scare the hell out of a lot of Danes.

Officially, this document is a Constitutional Treaty. Just to clear things up. ;)

A Constitution should be nowhere near 500 pages long. It shouldn't even be 10% of that.

I don't blame the French for voting No. Who the hell can expect the average person to read a 500 page document written in legalise, and then expect them to understand it?

I haven't read it either. So, I stick with the highlights I can find in newspapers, such as:

* Permanent EU president to replace six-month rotating presidencies

* EU foreign minister to conduct common foreign policy

* Qualified majority voting in most areas with vetoes limited

* Commission to be reduced to 15 with 10 non-voting associates

* Policy areas covered by European Parliament up from 34 to 70

* Legally binding Charter of Fundamental Rights

On the face of it, this doesn't look so bad.
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On the face of it, this looks bloody awful. A referendum in Britain would almost certainly show a bigger no vote than the French delivered.

The politicians want more power and less accountability, the people who vote for them and pay the enormous costs involved want nothing of the sort.

The EU is a tremendous drain on Britain's resources, and always
has been. Perhaps, once the huge problems of corruption and bloated bureaucracy have been solved, people might find the treaty more enticing.

Who is going to solve these problems? The bureaucrats and corrupt politicians? Don't hold your breath.
 
asthmatic camel said:
Oh what a joyous day! Chirac finally receives the bloody nose he deserves, from the French. :D :D :D
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It is sad.

Now most of the no voters confess that they voted no against Chirac, not the EU.
 
Re: Re: France gives the EU a thumbs down

Seismosaurus said:
YES!!!!

Truly a wonderful day. May there be many more rejections like it in the future! Dare we even hope that the EU itself might break up? Probably not, but fingers crossed...
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So You want a weaker England?
 
Re: Re: Re: France gives the EU a thumbs down

AWPrime said:
So You want a weaker England?
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A weaker England?(UK?) The EU has crippled the UK's economic growth for decades. The C.A.P. in particular has seen our once strong agricultural base brought to its knees. Manufacturing is heading the same way, whilst the service industries are shipping themselves back to India in a move of historic irony.

And the Spaniards steal all the fish. Bastards.

:p :p :p
 
asthmatic camel said:
On the face of it, this looks bloody awful. A referendum in Britain would almost certainly show a bigger no vote than the French delivered.
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I don't doubt it. The Brits have always considered themselves an island apart from Europe. Plus they are basically brought up to hate the French. Get over it.
The politicians want more power and less accountability, the people who vote for them and pay the enormous costs involved want nothing of the sort.
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What are you on about?
The EU is a tremendous drain on Britain's resources, and always has been.
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On the contrary, Britain has always had a special deal and never paid the dues they should have. As usual, the Germans have been paying for this project.
Perhaps, once the huge problems of corruption and bloated bureaucracy have been solved, people might find the treaty more enticing.
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Perhaps you should read a different newspaper and have a look at the larger picture.
Who is going to solve these problems? The bureaucrats and corrupt politicians? Don't hold your breath.
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Perhaps the new powerful Parliament, which would be in place if the Treaty was accepted?
 
DD, hang on a minute... The UK is a net contributor to the EU, to quite some tune. I'm old enough to remember the referendum which took the UK into what was then known as the "common market."

The idea presented to the voters was that of a free trade area, not that of progression towards an United States of Europe.

I seem to remember that the Danes were less than keen about the Maastricht treaty. How would they vote on the treaty now?
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: France gives the EU a thumbs down

asthmatic camel said:
And the Spaniards steal all the fish. Bastards.
:p :p :p
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Hey!!! I resemble that remark! :D

Besides, the anchovies left all by themselves. We didn't take 'em!
 
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