Forged memos on Bush vs Kerry's SBVs

Mycroft

High Priest of Ed
Mycroft
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
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These are, in my opinion, very similar lies. Yet the Swift Boat Vets allegations have lingered a lot longer, doing much more damage than did the forged memos on Bush's service in the National Guard.

Any theories as to why?
 
Oh yeah, does anyone have an opinion on the authenticity of this document?

bush_awol_memo.jpg


Source
 
Mycroft said:

These are, in my opinion, very similar lies. Yet the Swift Boat Vets allegations have lingered a lot longer, doing much more damage than did the forged memos on Bush's service in the National Guard.

Any theories as to why?
Click to expand...

The liberal media hates Kerry and loves Bush.


Oh yeah, does anyone have an opinion on the authenticity of this document?

bush_awol_memo.jpg


Source
Click to expand...

Looks authentic to me.
 
Mycroft said:
These are, in my opinion, very similar lies. Yet the Swift Boat Vets allegations have lingered a lot longer, doing much more damage than did the forged memos on Bush's service in the National Guard.
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254 Swift Boat Vets vs. one democrat activist and Dan Rather. Get real.
 
What I find interesting is CBS getting so defensive about being duped. They made what I think is a freudian slip regarding the source of these memos. I think its good bet that these hoaxes were distributed by a source CBS should have been skeptical of, possibly a partisan one or even someone connected to the Kerry campaign.

You have to remember, Dan Rather is a guy who actually admitted he believes in the vast right wing conspiracy. Its hard to get a read on someone who is quasi-delusional.
 
I don't deny they may be forged, but I have seen no evidence that they are definitely forged. Eg, the superscripts could be printed by typewriters of that time, something I didn't realise at first. Also, the characters do not line up perfectly, as they would from a typewriter, but not from a modern laser printer.
 
Mycroft said:
Oh yeah, does anyone have an opinion on the authenticity of this document?
Click to expand...

Looks pretty good and authentic to me.

Did anyone get a look at the document signed by Jerry Killian ordering G.W. Bush to report for a physical? A few minutes of careful analysis leaves one wondering.
 
a_unique_person said:
Also, the characters do not line up perfectly, as they would from a typewriter, but not from a modern laser printer.
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The characters are not consistant to themselves throughout the document. And look at the abrupt cut off of the signature, not easily done with a ball point pen. And why was "111th" typed differently each time it appeared?

Did anyone chemically analyze the paper to see if it was consistant with reports of that time?
 
Just thinking said:

Did anyone chemically analyze the paper to see if it was consistant with reports of that time?
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Not possible. They haven't been able to produce the original document, only a photocopy.
 
Re: Re: Forged memos on Bush vs Kerry's SBVs

American said:
254 Swift Boat Vets vs. one democrat activist and Dan Rather. Get real.
Click to expand...

http://www.billingsgazette.com/inde...news/2004/09/01/build/state/25-swift-boat.inc
Anderson said he first learned about the situation last week when he received an e-mail from a third party. The e-mail, from a Tom Pyle, said Pyle had contacted a dozen men whose names showed up on the list. Of the dozen, three said they had not given permission, Anderson said.

"That leads me to believe that as many as 25 percent of the names are fictitious supporters of that group," he said.
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http://www.billingsgazette.com/inde...news/2004/09/02/build/state/26-swift-boat.inc
McCabe said he did not know if the two sailors - Bob Anderson of Columbus and Bob Wedge of Mesquite, Nev. - did not read the letter properly, “but that's not our fault that they responded ‘yes.' ”

“We can only use the information they presented us,” he said.

The original e-mail requesting “signatures” of support for a letter that was to be sent to Kerry went out to swift boat veterans on April 27. The letter of request is not signed, but information from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth says the original letter was written by Navy Rear Adm. Roy Hoffmann.

The letter instructs veterans to reply with a “yes” if they wanted their names listed on the letter that would be sent to Kerry.

Two e-mails, faxed to The Gazette, show both men replied with a “yes.”

The response from Wedge, also dated April 27, states his name, ranking, boat number and concludes with “YES to Letter.” An e-mail from Anderson, dated May 6, states “Yes. I was on swifts July 1, 1969, to June 23, 1970. I served on 3 boat operating off sea float and above Ha Tuien along the Cambodian frontier at the same period of time that young Zumwalt and Kerry was doing the same. bob anderson EN2.”

Wedge insists that he remembers saying “no” when he received the e-mail.

“I strongly and vividly remember that,” he said. “They've got the information (ranking, boat number) right but I don't agree with it (letter). I don't get behind the candidate bashing - I just don't do it.”

Anderson said he does not remember receiving the original e-mail.

“If I said ‘yes,' I didn't mean ‘yes,' ” he said. “Yes, I was a swifty and that was the time period I served.”
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Ooh, as if generating a fraudulent email header is tough. As if I don't get a thousand emails with spoofed headers every week in my mailbox, including requests to 'update my account' from paypal and various credit and banking institutions that I don't even do business with.

As if an e-form or web back-end couldn't be set up to answer 'yes' no matter what link or button was pressed by a user.

Sounds like these two men's biggest mistake was responding to spam email at all.

And people want 'e-voting'....
 
a_unique_person said:
I don't deny they may be forged, but I have seen no evidence that they are definitely forged. Eg, the superscripts could be printed by typewriters of that time, something I didn't realise at first. Also, the characters do not line up perfectly, as they would from a typewriter, but not from a modern laser printer.
Click to expand...

The baseline shift can be faked as shown by the document posted by Mycroft. I can do that in InDesign, I don't know about Word. Who is to say that someone didn't dig up an old typewriter and use it? The original has yet to surface, all CBS has is a photocopy.

OK, let's play devil's advocate and say that the documents are 100% the real thing...
So what? In the case that the documents are real, what do they prove? That GW had conflicting civilian interests and his CO didn't like it? How unusual is that for the reserves?
 
Or (god forbid!) someone could use an IBM ball typewriter of that vintage, and an old personal copy machine to produce the same effects. Many typewriters are still working after a 100 years. Enough IBM ball typewriters with that font on a ball may easily have survived.

High technology and complex techniques are not required to produce a hoax. A computer is highly optional.

Analysis of the toner (if xerox copies are all that exist) or typewriter ink on the documents could expose much, as would analysis of the paper used.

Typewriter ribbon and inks change formulation regularly, as has toner. As does the content and quality of typewriter paper.

If the same paper, toner, etc. could have been purchased in the last ten years, and not 30 years ago, then forgery it certainly is.
 
Typefaces aside, isn't there the problem that one of the officers supposedly taking part in these memos had in fact been gone for over a year at the time?


As far as deniability, CBS is still 'standing behind' their story of Audis that ran way from their drivers, *and* the Dan Rather 'live from downtown Baghdad amid the bombs' report...
just as NBC is still standing behind their story on exploding GMC gas tanks.

I'm going to chalk this whole thing up to campign mud slinging and monkey business as usual.
 
The _content_ of the memos should have been the first sign of a hoax. The memo titled "CYA" for instance friggin looks like a forgery. It basically validates every left wing innuendo about Bush's guard duty.

If somethings too good to be true.......

The only thing I can't believe is the denial a lot of people are having over this. The superscript, the font face, the quote marks, and overlays all show beyond a reasonable doubt this is a hoax.

People have done tests with proportional font typewriters of the time and still can't get a matching overlay like Microsoft Word does.

The nice thing about hoaxes like this is it allows you to see who the skeptics on the board really are.
 
corplinx said:
The nice thing about hoaxes like this is it allows you to see who the skeptics on the board really are.
Click to expand...

I tend to agree, but I also find the Swift Boat Vets to lack credibility too.
 
corplinx said:
The _content_ of the memos should have been the first sign of a hoax. The memo titled "CYA" for instance friggin looks like a forgery. It basically validates every left wing innuendo about Bush's guard duty.

If somethings too good to be true.......

The only thing I can't believe is the denial a lot of people are having over this. The superscript, the font face, the quote marks, and overlays all show beyond a reasonable doubt this is a hoax.

People have done tests with proportional font typewriters of the time and still can't get a matching overlay like Microsoft Word does.

The nice thing about hoaxes like this is it allows you to see who the skeptics on the board really are.
Click to expand...

Says who? Given the venom and importance of this issue, I am supposed to trust the partisans who say it can't be true, and not trust the partisans who say it could be true.

Eg. for the MS Word as the source theory, what are all the parameters to put into word. A quick play by me couldn't reproduce it.
 
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