Split Thread Foreknowledge of events on 9/11

[paloalto]

Split from here.

Posted By: Agatha

I've thought about covering Mineta on 911myths before, but always decided against. It such an important story that I felt I had to cover it definitively, come up with something solid and new to prove my point. I've put in a couple of FOIA applications that might do just that, but nothing has come back yet.

To be honest, it's also seemed like an intimidating amount of work. People use Richard Clarke's timeline to support Mineta, bring in the "when did Cheney arrive at the PEOC?" line as well, and there's just a lot to do.

A couple of weeks ago, though, I wondered: if I were to do something on these issues now, without my FOIA documents, what would it look like? So I started work, and was surprised by just how many issues I discovered.

Let's take just one example: Richard Clarke's account of talking to FAA administrator Jane Garvey. He says Mineta hasn't reached the White House at this point, so Mineta defenders say it happened around 9:10. This is what Garvey is supposed to have said:



One obvious problem here is that Clarke has Garvey pointing to eleven "maybe hijacked" planes at 9:10. Does anyone else say that? I don't think so.

But another is the claim that the FAA were "frantically looking" for Mineta, they couldn't find him. That's especially interesting because Mineta says, in two separate accounts, that she was in his conference room for the second WTC strike at 9:03.

Mineta also says he heard of a phone call from her before he left his office, reporting that the Delta Airlines CEO had called to say he couldn't account for all of his aircraft. (An issue in itself. Why would he be saying that prior to 9:15?)

So what we're being asked to believe is that Garvey was with Mineta after 9:03 (if only for a few seconds), then had time to return to the FAA (admittedly just down the street), get briefed on the situation, call Mineta's office to pass on a Delta warning, then get to the point where they're "frantically looking" for him... all in 7 minutes? Am I the only person who finds that a little, uh, unrealistic?

Anyway, there's plenty more across three pages, if you're interested.

The Richard Clarke teleconference
Dick Cheney at the PEOC
Norman Mineta

They really need more cleaning up and wikifying, adding links etc, but that'll have to wait: real life calls. In the meantime, though, feel free to let me know if you spot any mistakes, or other details I can add.

We now know from Defense Exhibit 939, entered into the Moussaoui trial on March 11, 2006, that on August 22, 2001 Tenet knew that both al Qaeda terrorists Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi were inside of the US, from information given to the CIA by the INS, and that of these terrorists were in the USA in order to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that would kill thousands of Americans. On August 23, 2001, Tenet, according to his own testimony to the 9/11 Commission, found out that FBI criminal agents from the Minneapolis FBI field office had arrested Zacarias Moussaoui, and he had been arrested while trying to get flying lessons on a B747, without even having a private pilots license. The FBI field office in Minneapolis thought Moussaoui was a terrorist who wanted to lean to fly a B747 in order to take part in a plot to hijack a large commercial aircraft and fly it into the side of the one of the World Trade Center Towers, and when they could not get permission from FBI HQ's to search Moussaoui's duffle bag they had called the CIA asking for help to get this FISA issued search warrant.

We also know from the 9/11 Commission report, that the CIA received information that Khalid Sheik Mohamed was the mastermind behind this al Qaeda terrorist attack that the CIA had been getting numerous warnings about since April 2001, and that he was recruiting many terrorists in the summer of 2001, who were being sent into the US to link up with other terrorist who were already in the US, or who had visas for the US, who the CIA knew were Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi.

We also now know that according to information right on the White House web site that George Tenet had a 6 hour meeting with President Bush at the Crawford White House on August 24, 2001.So with all of this horrific information, exactly what did Tenet tell Bush. We still don't know since at the April 14, 2004 9/11 Commission public hearings, Tenet told the Commission and the American people that in spite of knowing about this huge attack and knowing that thousands of Americans were just about to be murdered in this attack, he had not talked to the president in all of August 2001. I was at that hearing, sitting no more that 3 feet directly behind Tenet when he told the world this information, that he had not talked to the President in all of August 2001, a fact which no one who heard Tenet make this incomprehensible statement believed, in particular all of the people at that hearing who had lost loved ones in the attacks on 9/11. Everyone including the 9/11 Commissioners thought Tenet was out and out lying to this Commission and to the American people.

When you look at the some of the faces of these people on 9/11, in particular Cheney, Bush, Rice, and Tenet, they look guilty as hell. And it is completely impossible to believe that these people who were chartered with keeping the American people safe from terrorist attacks, did not know almost every detail of these attacks prior to them taking place.

Look at the comments on the Frontline web page of these photos, almost to a person, no one believes that these people were unaware of the attacks that took place on 9/11 and now feel that these people did absolutely nothing to keep Americans safe from this horrific attack. Even Richard Clarke asked Rice just prior to attending the principles meeting on al Qaeda on September 4, 2001, " I wonder if some day the American people will ask why we did not do more to prevent this (al Qaeda terrorist) attack from taking place". They are still asking this question even to today!

 

[DGM]

Look at the comments on the Frontline web page of these photos, almost to a person, no one believes that these people were unaware of the attacks that took place on 9/11 and now feel that these people did absolutely nothing to keep Americans safe from this horrific attack. Even Richard Clarke asked Rice just prior to attending the principles meeting on al Qaeda on September 4, 2001, " I wonder if some day the American people will ask why we did not do more to prevent this (al Qaeda terrorist) attack from taking place". They are still asking this question even to today!

Not likely because, most people know that hindsight is 20/20. When are you going to stop looking for the scrape-goat and find the evidence they actually knew when, where and how the attack was going to happen (and acted to not prevent it).

 

[Oystein]

...When you look at the some of the faces of these people on 9/11, in particular Cheney, Bush, Rice, and Tenet, they look guilty as hell.

Are you serious?

And it is completely impossible to believe that these people who were chartered with keeping the American people safe from terrorist attacks, did not know almost every detail of these attacks prior to them taking place.

Are you serious? "Completely impossible"? "Almost every detail"? Seriously??

 

[DGM]

Are you serious? "Completely impossible"? "Almost every detail"? Seriously??

Are you saying these people didn't have the advantage of paloalto's hind sight? They had to know, it's too clear now....

 

[gumboot]

It's funny watching laymen try to bridge the gap between "intelligence" and "actionable intelligence" with hand-waving and grandiose declarations.

 

[spooky24]

We now know from Defense Exhibit 939, entered into the Moussaoui trial on March 11, 2006, that on August 22, 2001 Tenet knew that both al Qaeda terrorists Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi were inside of the US, from information given to the CIA by the INS, and that of these terrorists were in the USA in order to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that would kill thousands of Americans. On August 23, 2001, Tenet, according to his own testimony to the 9/11 Commission, found out that FBI criminal agents from the Minneapolis FBI field office had arrested Zacarias Moussaoui, and he had been arrested while trying to get flying lessons on a B747, without even having a private pilots license. The FBI field office in Minneapolis thought Moussaoui was a terrorist who wanted to lean to fly a B747 in order to take part in a plot to hijack a large commercial aircraft and fly it into the side of the one of the World Trade Center Towers, and when they could not get permission from FBI HQ's to search Moussaoui's duffle bag they had called the CIA asking for help to get this FISA issued search warrant.

Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi have never been linked to any of these claims. We knew they were here-but that is all.

If you remember 'The Black Banners' Ali Soufan stated that there whereabouts were lost in the separation of criminal and intelligence agency's.

THe FBI field office knew nothing of any of this. It was an instructor for the flight school that told his boss about the guy who could not speak English-then the FBI got involved.

Making accusations like this that have no bearing of fact-other than hindsight is the main reason the Internet is a lousy place to do research for 9/11 or anything else.

Like everything else the transcripts of the Moussaoui trial have been altered by scores of people be cause it is so easy to do-but mostly because people don't want anything that might cloud their worship of the Internet as the magnum opus for all things great and small.

The government got fed up with this a long time ago and the only place to get the transcripts is from the Justice department by mail-like I have. People down load the transcripts-change them to fit the flavor of the day-then post them on their website.

 

[tsig]

We now know from Defense Exhibit 939, entered into the Moussaoui trial on March 11, 2006, that on August 22, 2001 Tenet knew that both al Qaeda terrorists Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi were inside of the US, from information given to the CIA by the INS, and that of these terrorists were in the USA in order to take part in a massive al Qaeda attack that would kill thousands of Americans. On August 23, 2001, Tenet, according to his own testimony to the 9/11 Commission, found out that FBI criminal agents from the Minneapolis FBI field office had arrested Zacarias Moussaoui, and he had been arrested while trying to get flying lessons on a B747, without even having a private pilots license. The FBI field office in Minneapolis thought Moussaoui was a terrorist who wanted to lean to fly a B747 in order to take part in a plot to hijack a large commercial aircraft and fly it into the side of the one of the World Trade Center Towers, and when they could not get permission from FBI HQ's to search Moussaoui's duffle bag they had called the CIA asking for help to get this FISA issued search warrant.

We also know from the 9/11 Commission report, that the CIA received information that Khalid Sheik Mohamed was the mastermind behind this al Qaeda terrorist attack that the CIA had been getting numerous warnings about since April 2001, and that he was recruiting many terrorists in the summer of 2001, who were being sent into the US to link up with other terrorist who were already in the US, or who had visas for the US, who the CIA knew were Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi.

We also now know that according to information right on the White House web site that George Tenet had a 6 hour meeting with President Bush at the Crawford White House on August 24, 2001.So with all of this horrific information, exactly what did Tenet tell Bush. We still don't know since at the April 14, 2004 9/11 Commission public hearings, Tenet told the Commission and the American people that in spite of knowing about this huge attack and knowing that thousands of Americans were just about to be murdered in this attack, he had not talked to the president in all of August 2001. I was at that hearing, sitting no more that 3 feet directly behind Tenet when he told the world this information, that he had not talked to the President in all of August 2001, a fact which no one who heard Tenet make this incomprehensible statement believed, in particular all of the people at that hearing who had lost loved ones in the attacks on 9/11. Everyone including the 9/11 Commissioners thought Tenet was out and out lying to this Commission and to the American people.

When you look at the some of the faces of these people on 9/11, in particular Cheney, Bush, Rice, and Tenet, they look guilty as hell. And it is completely impossible to believe that these people who were chartered with keeping the American people safe from terrorist attacks, did not know almost every detail of these attacks prior to them taking place.

Look at the comments on the Frontline web page of these photos, almost to a person, no one believes that these people were unaware of the attacks that took place on 9/11 and now feel that these people did absolutely nothing to keep Americans safe from this horrific attack. Even Richard Clarke asked Rice just prior to attending the principles meeting on al Qaeda on September 4, 2001, " I wonder if some day the American people will ask why we did not do more to prevent this (al Qaeda terrorist) attack from taking place". They are still asking this question even to today!

Looking at your Avatar you must be guilty of crimes to numerous to commit.

 

[spooky24]

When you look at the some of the faces of these people on 9/11, in particular Cheney, Bush, Rice, and Tenet, they look guilty as hell. And it is completely impossible to believe that these people who were chartered with keeping the American people safe from terrorist attacks, did not know almost every detail of these attacks prior to them taking place.

To me the most interesting part of 9/11 was what went on in the weeks and months afterward.

Seth Jones work 'Hunting in the shadows' is so reflected and quite confusing at first trying to keep the players straight as each has at least 3 alias. It does show the amazing amount of data they must comb through each day. The Bin Laden station was receiving a hundreds hits a day-that all have to followed up on. That is why hindsight accusations of who, what and why are silly.

It is interesting that after the first wave-that peaked on September 11th there was a huge dip in intelligence as the players were shocked to see the towers fall and knew the American armed forces were heading that way in droves ready to waste anyone left.

So, they 'got out of Dodge' Jones thought is amusing that they all knew the American slang for boasting on the run.

Any of these accusations that the higher ups should have known what was going on is baseless and downright stupid-it shows the people that make these charges simply know nothing about any of the complicated web this became.

 

[Brainster]

To me the most interesting part of 9/11 was what went on in the weeks and months afterward.

Seth Jones work 'Hunting in the shadows' is so reflected and quite confusing at first trying to keep the players straight as each has at least 3 alias. It does show the amazing amount of data they must comb through each day. The Bin Laden station was receiving a hundreds hits a day-that all have to followed up on. That is why hindsight accusations of who, what and why are silly.

Yep. I compared it one time to a kid who has the Where's Waldo books and shows a particular favorite page to a friend. And sits there fussing because his buddy can't find Waldo immediately. It's all so obvious when you know what to look at and what to ignore. Alec station was like that friend, except that they didn't even know if there was a Waldo on the page at all.

 

[beachnut]

... When you look at the some of the faces of these people on 9/11, in particular Cheney, Bush, Rice, and Tenet, they look guilty as hell. And it is completely impossible to believe that these people who were chartered with keeping the American people safe from terrorist attacks, did not know almost every detail of these attacks prior to them taking place. ... !

That reminds me...
evidence for BS never materializes

 

[DGM]

Seth Jones work 'Hunting in the shadows' is so reflected and quite confusing at first trying to keep the players straight as each has at least 3 alias. It does show the amazing amount of data they must comb through each day.

Thanks for the reminder on that book. I planed to read it a few years ago but forgot the title. Just picked it up.

 

[ozeco41]

That reminds me...
evidence for BS never materializes

Google is your friend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hyXggq-dvu0

 

[paloalto]

Not likely because, most people know that hindsight is 20/20. When are you going to stop looking for the scrape-goat and find the evidence they actually knew when, where and how the attack was going to happen (and acted to not prevent it).

My post stated that:

“Even Richard Clarke asked Rice just prior to attending the principles meeting on al Qaeda on September 4, 2001, " I wonder if some day the American people will ask why we did not do more to prevent this (al Qaeda terrorist) attack from taking place". They are still asking this question even to today!”

But the post I am relying to states: "Not likely because, most people know that hindsight is 20/20."

HELLO, HELLO. Has there even been a more stupid reply in all of this time since 9/11. In case you missed it, August 22, 2001, and August 23, 2001 are 3 weeks prior to the attacks on 9/11 not after the attacks on 9/11. We also now know, that by August 22-23, 2001 Tenet, the CIA and FBI HQ’s all knew that a massive al Qaeda terrorist attack was just about to take place aimed right at the US that would cause “mass American casualties”.

This information comes right out of Bob Woodward’s book, “State of Denial”, and was information Tenet gave to Richard bin Venista and Philip Zelicow, but was never added into the 9/11 Commission report. This information meant that Tenet had more than enough time to immediately raise an alarm that could have forced the FBI HQs to investigate and search for both Mihdhar and Hazmi, instead of shutting down, using major Federal felonies to do so, the criminal investigation of Mihdhar and Hazmi, by FBI Criminal Agent Steve Bongardt and his team, an investigation that could have found these terrorists prior to the attacks on 9/11.

AGAIN FOR THOSE WITH EXTREMLY LIMITED MENTAL ABILITIES:

August 22, 2001, and August 23, 2001 are 3 weeks prior to the attacks on 9/11 and not after the attacks on 9/11, so pointing out that the CIA had more than enough time to raise a massive alarm that a huge al Qaeda terrorists attacks were just about to take place inside of the US and that Mihdhar and Hazmi were going to take part in this attack, is not pointing out 20/20 hindsight but pointing out foreknowledge of this al Qaeda terrorist attack.

Tenet also stated at the April 14, 2004 public hearings of the 9/11 Commission, that at the September 4, 2001 Principles meeting in the White House, the very first Principles meeting on the al Qaeda terrorists, he did not mention the fact that a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack was just about to talk place inside of the US, that Zacarias Moussaoui had just been arrested by Minneapolis FBI agents just 3 week before when these agents thought Moussaoui was a terrorist trying to get training on a B747 type aircraft, or that both Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi, two al Qaeda terrorists, who the CIA had known had taken part in the planning of the Cole bombing and even knew that were inside of the US in order to take part in a huge al Qaeda terrorist attack that would kill thousands of Americans. Tenet admitted at the April 14, 2004 public hearings of the 9/11 Commission that he had never shared any of this information with the other Principles at this September 4, 2001 meeting or with the National Security Council or with the FBI. He stated at the April 14, 2004 9/11 Commission hearing that for whatever reason, it was just not appropriate to bring this information up at this September 4, 2001 meeting.

Now this makes a lot of sense? Tenet knows that thousands of people in the US are just about to be murdered by al Qaeda terrorists, yet he does not bring this horrific fact up at this September 4, 2001 meeting at the White House with the other people who were at this Principles meeting because it was just not appropriate to do so. Richard Clarke stated after the attacks on 9/11, that if Tenet had not kept this information, that Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US in order to take part in a massive al Qaeda terrorist attack, secret at this meeting, even at this late date, these terrorists could have been found prior to these attacks taking place.

At this meeting, the following people also knew this attack was about to take place, although most of them, other than Rice, Black and Tenet, did not know Mihdhar and Hazmi were inside of the US or that Moussaoui had just been arrested in Minneapolis: Condoleezza Rice, Richard Clarke, John Hadley, John Ashcroft, Donald Rumsfeld, Coffer Black and George Tenet.

SAY WHAT?

IS THERE EVEN ONE PERSON ON THIS FORUM, EVEN ONE SINGLE PERSON, THAT IS SO COMPLTETLY STUPID, SO DEVOID OF EVEN THE SLIGHTEST BRAIN MATTER, TO ACTUALLY BELIEVE THE LIES BY THIS LYING SCUM BAG WHO WAS LITERALLY LETTING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN THE US BE MUREDERED BY THE AL QAEDA TERRORISTS IN A HUGE ATTACK THAT AT THIS POINT MANY OTHER PEOPL AT THE TOP OF THE US GOVERNMENT IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION ALSO KNEW WAS JUST ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE?

But Tenet was right, if he and the other officials at the top of the US government actually wanted this attack to take place, then it was clearly not appropriate to bring this information up at this September 4, 2001 meeting.

Who on this forum can explain why this is true, and can explain what Tenet meant by the words, “for whatever reason”? By the way this is an intelligence test!

 

[DGM]

By the way this is an intelligence test!

Expain after reading your insult ridden post should I give a crap about your "intelligent test"?

Strange how you still didn't show the evidence the intel was known to be good and specific.

There's a real good reason no one has pulled in Pulitzer prize with this "story".

 

[Joey McGee]

When you're insulting the intelligence of people for not believing a conspiracy theory that virtually zero percent of the most accomplished intellectuals on the planet believe, you become a caricature of yourself.

 

[paloalto]

Expain after reading your insult ridden post should I give a crap about your "intelligent test"?

Strange how you still didn't show the evidence the intel was known to be good and specific.

There's a real good reason no one has pulled in Pulitzer prize with this "story".

The information that the FBI HQ,s and CIA had did not need to be specific. All you needed were the names of some of the al Qaeda terrorists who were going to take part in this attack in order to stop this attack.

By the way I have already shown that this evidence was good and even specific in many other posts.

This was not an insult ridden post: From my prior post:

"My post stated that:

“Even Richard Clarke asked Rice just prior to attending the principles meeting on al Qaeda on September 4, 2001, " I wonder if some day the American people will ask why we did not do more to prevent this (al Qaeda terrorist) attack from taking place". They are still asking this question even to today!”

But the post I am relying to states: "Not likely because, most people know that hindsight is 20/20."

HELLO, HELLO. Has there even been a more stupid reply in all of this time since 9/11. In case you missed it, August 22, 2001, and August 23, 2001 are 3 weeks prior to the attacks on 9/11 not after the attacks on 9/11. We also now know, that by August 22-23, 2001 Tenet, the CIA and FBI HQ’s all knew that a massive al Qaeda terrorist attack was just about to take place aimed right at the US that would cause “mass American casualties”. "

Just stating the facts, if you don't like these facts, then find other fact that can refute this!

From my prior post:

IS THERE EVEN ONE PERSON ON THIS FORUM, EVEN ONE SINGLE PERSON, THAT IS SO COMPLETELY STUPID, SO DEVOID OF EVEN THE SLIGHTEST BRAIN MATTER, TO ACTUALLY BELIEVE THE LIES BY THIS LYING SCUM BAG WHO WAS LITERALLY LETTING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE IN THE US BE MURDERED BY THE AL QAEDA TERRORISTS IN A HUGE ATTACK THAT AT THIS POINT MANY OTHER PEOPLE AT THE TOP OF THE US GOVERNMENT IN THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION ALSO KNEW WAS JUST ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE?

MY GOD MAN, if the shoe fits , then wear it for GODS sake!

 

[Bravin Neff]

Sorry folks, dumb question...

1. This thread is essentially about debunking some LIHOP truther claims.

2. Of course we're all familiar with MIHOP claims...

Are some people in the LIHOP and MIHOP camps simultaneously? As in, they believe some nefarious group knowingly let planes fly into buildings, right in to the same spot they had already secretly planted explosive devices?

 

[DGM]

The information that the FBI HQ,s and CIA had did not need to be specific.

Yes it did. This would be how they would separate it from the hundreds of other threats. It's easy after the fact to do this.

Tell me what exactly made this threat special among the hundreds of others? It was only separated out after because the players were known (after the fact).

You don't understand the concept of hind-sight.

 

[DGM]

Are some people in the LIHOP and MIHOP camps simultaneously? As in, they believe some nefarious group knowingly let planes fly into buildings, right in to the same spot they had already secretly planted explosive devices?

I would tend to doubt it. It really is two different religions. Making something happen requires much more commitment and participation by many more people. LIHOP is a "truther" lite. "They" were involved but, "they" didn't need much help from outside.

 

[ozeco41]

Sorry folks, dumb question...

1. This thread is essentially about debunking some LIHOP truther claims.

2. Of course we're all familiar with MIHOP claims...

Are some people in the LIHOP and MIHOP camps simultaneously? As in, they believe some nefarious group knowingly let planes fly into buildings, right in to the same spot they had already secretly planted explosive devices?

There are (at least) two perspectives on MIHOP, LIHOP, LIHOOI:
1) The most commonly discussed which assumes that the "I" (it) was a single co-ordinated entity determined by one central control which either "Made", or "Let" it happen.

2) The alternate - which I suggest is more realistic - is that between all the agencies, sections of agencies and individuals involved at levels from operational clerking right up to head of agency and the executive branch - there could have been M, L or L at many levels and many parts of the overall complex situation.

"2)" Of course does not preclude "1)"

But IMO it is near certain that:
- many individuals made errors - LIHOOI (Reverse the logic - is it conceivable that no individual or agency made any errors through incompetence?);
- Some agencies deliberately withheld info from other agencies out of inter-agency rivalry or "turf protection" (MIHOP or LIHOP depending on specific details)
- (There would be many more in an extensive list of variants on the theme.)

I don't recall this perspective of "segmented" MIHOP/LIHOP/LIHOOI being discussed seriously.

And doing so would obviously complicate discussions for which Internet forums are not the best medium.