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"For Atlantis, turn right at Cyprus "

Cleopatra

Philosopher
Joined
Mar 15, 2003
Messages
9,079
I am not sure I am posting this to the right forum but for me a discussion about Atlantis belongs always to the Paranormal.

I remember the days I was at the University in a course about the Platonic Myths, when we were studing " Timaios" and " Critias" we were wondering how could it be possible for somebody to take this obvious allegory literally....

What so ever.

Another "Atlantis" was found, in Cyprus this time...

Full article of course the article is signed by Helena Smith, Guardian's reporter in Athens, therefore you have to take it with a grain of salt...

For Atlantis, turn right at Cyprus

Helena Smith in Athens
Sunday September 28, 2003
The Observer

Since time immemorial Cyprus has thrived by association with Aphrodite - the love goddess who emerged from its silky waves.

After nearly a decade of rummaging through libraries, studying maps, reading ancient works and pouring over oceanographic data, an American researcher believes he has discovered the site of the lost civilisation on the sea floor between Cyprus and Syria, not far from Greece and Egypt, from where the legend of Atlantis originated.

'This is an area that has not been charted before,' Robert Sarmast told The Observer from his Los Angeles office. 'The submerged land mass we have located off Cyprus's coast matches Plato's famed description of Atlantis nearly perfectly.

'
Atlantis, he said, was a collection of islands, one of them huge. Its land was 'the best in the world... able, in those days, to support a vast army' before a huge tidal wave flooded it around 10,000BC.

The quest for the lost land is as undying as the myth itself. In the past decade, Atlantis has been 'sighted' at the top of volcanos and the bottom of seas; off the coast of Bolivia, Turkey, Antarctica and India.

But Sarmast, who made colleagues working on the project sign secrecy pledges, goes one step further than other Atlantologists in claiming to have vindicated Plato's narrative as not just a philosopher's allegory.

The researcher, author of Discovery of Atlantis: The Startling Case for the Island of Cyprus to be published in Britain next month, claims he has pinpointed the fabled island with 'unprecedented accuracy'.

Using sonar technology provided by an oil company, he mapped the seabed to ascertain what he says is the shape of the island. The watery kingdom has been 'brought alive' in 3D bathymetric maps and models that depict a stretch of sunken land off Cyprus.

If Plato is to be believed, there are colossal buildings, bridges, canals, temples and artefacts to be found in these waters.
 
All right, time to set the record straight (again) about Atlantis. Atlantis is the bane of nearly every archaeologist who studies lost civilizations. It is also the final thread of ultimate mystery to which some cling desperately in their hope for Something Greater, or their need for the Establishment to be Wrong, or their assertion that Technology Is Bad.

What’s pertinent to this discussion is that Atlantis probably never, ever existed outside of Plato’s mind. People may find a sunken island here or a lost civilization there, and proclaim that they’ve found Atlantis (or, to give themselves some wiggle room, the “inspiration for the story of Atlantis”. Well, the sunken island and lost civilization may be genuine, but they are not Atlantis by any means.

There have been efforts to legitimize the tale, or to “appease” the Atlantis-mongers by finding “Atlantis” or its real-life counterpart on some island or other, which was destroyed. The problem with any such assertion is that no matter when the island existed or was destroyed, there’s absolutely no way of telling for certain whether this was the island that Plato used for inspiration. It’s all whistling in the wind.

The only place on earth, in history, anywhere, ever, that the tale of Atlantis is mentioned, alluded to, suggested, or even paraphrased is in the works of Plato; specifically the two dialogues which Cleopatra mentioned – the Timaeus and the Critias. In the Timaeus, Atlantis is only briefly references amongst a number of other stories. The Critias more or less goes into great detail about the island itself and its government, etc. Yet, we only need the Timaeus to tell us that Atlantis never existed.

In the Timaeus, “Critias” is telling a story to Socrates about a story handed down to him from his ancestors. Here’s part of the relevant text:

From the Timaeus

Many great and wonderful deeds are recorded of your state in our histories. But one of them exceeds all the rest in greatness and valour. For these histories tell of a mighty power which unprovoked made an expedition against the whole of Europe and Asia, and to which your city put an end. This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent.
Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits; and then, Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars.
But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

We’re all used to hearing about Atlantis referred to as a peace-loving techno-marvel society which, through abuse of technology or nature or both, met an untimely end through cataclysmic volcanic activity. But how twisted the tale has become! Here, in the beginning, and the first mention of the story in history, we find that Atlantis was a race of brutish warrior thugs that set out to enslave the entire Mediterranean Sea, and nearly succeeded! Only the efforts of the (really) ancient Athenians saved the world from this horrible menace.

Yet this whole account, all by itself, proves the non-existence of Atlantis. Plato gives a wealth of geographic information pertinent to the Atlantis story. He places the island, without any grey area, in the Atlantic Ocean, outside the Pillars of Heracles (otherwise known as the Straits of Gibraltar. Some have suggested that Plato meant a different “Pillars of Heracles”, but Plato makes it clear he’s talking about Gibraltar. According to the account, Atlantis enslaved the Mediterranean peoples as far as Tyrrhenia (Italy) on the north coast and Egypt on the southern coast. He also states that the island of Atlantis was frickin’ hugebigger than all of then-known Europe and Africa!

An island of that size cannot have existed in the Mediterranean. All of the “candidate islands” in the Mediterranean – Cyprus, Crete, Santorini, and the rest – are simply way too small to support an army large enough to rule the Sea. And it flies in the face of common sense that these islands’ militaries would be able to subjugate Spain, Italy, Libya, and Egypt, yet not have any influence over Greece, Turkey, or Palestine, to which they are much, much closer. Finally, all islands that were destroyed by volcanoes are disqualified; Plato specifically mentions earthquakes and floods (in the Critias, Plato explains that the floods were caused by torrential rains), but no volcanoes. There isn’t a single island in the Mediterranean that meets the specific criteria established by Plato. Of course, simple juxtaposition will lead us to the conclusion that there aren’t any islands in the Atlantic which meet the criteria either. The Atlantis legend does not stand up to scientific scrutiny in any way, shape, or form. At this point in time, it’s safe to say that Plato invented the story.
 
Originally posted by Joshua Korosi
He also states that the island of Atlantis was frickin’ huge…bigger than all of then-known Europe and Africa!

Well, he states that Atlantis was "larger than Libya and Asia" put together. Perhaps he is only talking about what the Romans called Asia minor?


One of my books tells me that a stadium is either 192 m (630 ft) or 185 m (607 ft). With the bigger of these values and the measurements given by Plato, Atlantis would be "extending in one direction" 576 km (360 miles) and "across the centre inland" 384 km (240 miles).

That is still fairly large, but not that huge.

But I second the allegory notion...
 
Wasn't there a Greek city called Helike which really did get submerged, albeit after Plato's death?
 
I once read there is was a Phoenician city in what is now Spain or Portugal that was a great trade centre and probably dominated the western Mediterranean; that city was thought to be destroyed by an earthquake. That might have been an inspiration for the "world´s first superpower".

Anyway, I thought most Atlantis woo-woos claimed Atlantis was in modern-day Bahamas.
 
I once wrote a paper on the Atlantis-Santorini connection. I called it,


. . . wait for it . . .


Atlantis: Was it ever really Thera?
 
Chaos said:
I once read there is was a Phoenician city in what is now Spain or Portugal that was a great trade centre and probably dominated the western Mediterranean; that city was thought to be destroyed by an earthquake. That might have been an inspiration for the "world´s first superpower".

Anyway, I thought most Atlantis woo-woos claimed Atlantis was in modern-day Bahamas.

There were a few Phoenician cities in the Iberian peninsula, namely Sevile, Cadiz', and Malaga. However, their influence wasn't all that great, especially after Celts arrived from the north and began to assert their presence, and besides, it wasn't the Phoenicians' wont to act aggressive, since the cities were there to trade. Earthquakes may have damaged one or more of the cities, but had no effect on the Phoenicians' power in that area which, militarily, was nil. Even when the Phoenicians became the Carthaginians, who sought to close off the Gibraltar Strait to all Greek vessels, they could only physically occupy and control northern Africa (from whence they came).
 
reprise said:
Wasn't there a Greek city called Helike which really did get submerged, albeit after Plato's death?

Actually no.

Helike really existed and it was visited by Pausanias during the year 174 AD and described in details in his" Achaics" one of the eight books in chich he narrates his travels around Greece.
 
My 2 cents...

None of the candidates (Helike, Thera, Troy, etc) are Atlantis. They could have been, in the better hypothesis, a template for the creation of Atlantis story.

If its not on the Atlantic ocean, if its not big, if its not at least 10000 years old, then its not Atlantis.

And since
1-There are no geological process capable of creating a vertical movent over a vast area (say, the size of the Brittsh Islands or even Ireland) fast enough to fit with what is decribed by Plato.
2-The only place in the Atlantic ocean where there is (nowdays and in the historic past) explosive volcanic activity similar to that from Santorini is the Caribbean arc.
3-Oceanic island volcanism (different from volcanic activity on island arcs such as Japan, Phillipines) is "calm", it is composed by large shield volcanoes and basalt flows (examples- Hawaii, Iceland).
4-There is no continental (with a granite or granodioritic composition) crust at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean.

We can conclude with a reasonable ammount of safety that there is no Atlantis.

Footnote- I saw a documenatry on Discovery channel some years ago about Atlantis on the Andes... A guy looked at satellite images and found what to him were the circular channels and lakes described by Plato as surrounding Atlantis capital (Possidonia? Don´t remember)- and still with water. The film crew (and the "specialist") went to the spot and found out that they were part of the ore processing installations from a mine. The "specialist"´s disappointment face was quite funny to see. Any photointerpreter with a minimum ammount of experience would have been able to recognize this. So much for these self-proclaimed specialists. And Discovery channel dropped money on such crap...
 
Why Atlantis is only a Myth?

Those who are familiar with the work of Plato know that what distinguishes his philosophical system is the existence of the " World of Ideas". Plato thinks that apart from the evident, visible world there is another one that is inhabited by eternal, perfect, beings : the ideas.

Every being of the actual visible world --according to Plato-- is nothing but an imitation of the original idea that lives in this imaginable world of his.

Every human's soul during a previous existence got acquainted with this perfect world and now that lives in a new body everytime it sees those imitations, those copies, has the ability to recall the originals from his memory and to come closer to the Truth of this imaginable world which according to Plato was the only real world.

Well this is a brief account of the Platonic Philosophy that comes over and over to his dialogues and it's imporant to keep it in mind while attempting to interpret the Platonic Myths.

From this imaginable world that hosts the perfect prototypes of the world that surrounds us, Athens --the home of Plato-- couldn't be absent.

The ideal Athens existed to the World of Ideals too. Plato imagined that Hercules and Athena, imherited that ideal Athens and created a city that dominated not only the rest of the Greek cities but Europe and Asia as well ( Critias 109b-112e and Timaios 23d-23d )

So, what Plato needed in order that his description for the ideal Athens is complete? An ideal Sparta of course and Atlantis, plays exactly this role in the Platonic work, he needed Atlantis in order to show the conflict that created his ideal city. The perfect Athens needed a perfect opponent.

Correa Neto I saw this documentary, a couple of moths ago,and I was surpised with Discovery too. They presented the story as if they took its accuracy for granted.
 

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