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Fluoride and other "toxin" fallacies

Eos of the Eons

Mad Scientist
Eos of the Eons
Joined
Jul 23, 2003
Messages
13,749
I will do in this thread what I usually do, and that is direct you to skeptoid.com ;) .
 
I'd say what does radiation got to do with it, but instead I will say they use water in those processes too, and when it comes down to using things again... actually getting just the chemical out to use again means it's not contaminated... thank you very much... Are you going to stop drinking all water because it's used, and is a byproduct, of many processes for the same reasons?
 
I wish I had time, but if someone could address the first link in the OP at all?

That, and there is cyanide in Almonds, but you have to eat too many almonds to try to commit suicide. The dose matters, not that if it is there or not, and we know that it takes a HUGE amount of Fluoride to get any bad effects.
 
Omg I actually remembered my password after a few attempts! :) Like I just said on Facebook, I've uploaded 5 pages from the book that has what is to me sciencey stuff. I'd just like to know if this is accurate science, and if so great, and if not, why not? How differently do chemicals behave in the air vs in the water vs in a bloodstream vs in a vial? How does fluorine relate to fluoride? (I think that was actually addressed early on but don't remember the wording.) Do said chemicals actually have said effect on people? That is the only thing I'm interested in with discussion. I'm all for the benefits of water fluoridation but have to wonder about the accuracy of stuff presented in the book, hence my curiosity. It's not the usual "fluoride causes cancer" blather.
 
Oh, the book is "The Fluoride Deception" by Chris Bryson, who is not a scientist but an investigative reporter. Not sure how many people have read it and I still haven't read through it all, but want to know if what's described is feasible. Air pollution from fluoride gases as byproducts of bomb making, symptoms of fluoride poisoning from just the air anyway, and whys/hows of what blood measurements are. Thanks in advance.
 
I wish I saved my posts or something. I can't remember the exact amounts, but time I did the math on the LD50 for fluoridated water, it came out with some completely ludicrous number.

At the very least, you'd need to drink a mass of water greater than your own. Of course, if it's dissolved in the water, it'll dissolve in your bloodstream and you'll urinate it out. Good luck.
 
zenotter said:
Ah, here we go - this is a part of the book that I'd love to know about science-wise. Feasible? Did something else really happen? Are people involved with this crazy gone nuts? http://www.actionpa.org/fluoride/donora-fog.html
Click to expand...

I think the important part is that you don't use fluoride to make zinc.

There were many other poisonous gasses from that plant, anyway. Hard to blame it on just one.
 
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I don't recall anything about using fluoride to make zinc but I could have missed that. The book mentions scapegoating adverse effects on sulfur dioxide at zinc mills, and using fluorspar in steel mills in drawing steel from the molten ore. It also talks about high blood fluoride levels in areas where people would make fluoride compounds, and how there was a higher number of central nervous system disorders in the same areas. Could the causality be accurate, compared to other mills with other toxic fumes?
 
okay,

Fluorine and Fluoride are NOT NOT NOT the same thing. Repeat after me... The author of that article uses the terms interchangeably, and this alone discredits his journalistic integrity. An investigative journalist that doesn't investigate???

Fluorine as a gas is a nasty substance, but is unlikely to stay in its natural state for long (is very reactive). Given any moisture in the air, it combines with water to form hydrofluoric acid, which has the characteristic of being readily absorbed through the skin and lodging everywhere that it shouldn't, with effects showing up after the exposure.

The only source of fluorine and fluorine compounds that I can think of relating to steelmaking is likely the fluorite (calcium fluoride) used as a flux in steel making. This is a naturally occurring mineral, of which I have several kilos in different pretty colours.

Zinc making often has sulfur emissions associated with it, as zinc sulphide is a commonly occurring zinc mineral mined for zinc. Unless well controlled, the smelting produces sulfur dioxide gas and this is also nasty stuff - and is very good at killing vegetation. (google Queenstown, Tasmania for an example).

The author appears to be blaming "fluoride" for everything, failing to recognise the other causal factors stated.
 
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Fluorine is the element. It's a gas, and an oxidizing agent. That makes it toxic, since it will oxidize human body tissue in the respiratory system.

However, once fluorine has oxidized something, it becomes ionized. The ionized form is called fluoride. If it has oxidized, for instance, a metal like sodium or potassium, it forms, with the metal, a salt. It is such fluoride salts that are used in toothpastes and added to drinking water. Fluoride behaves very different, chemically, from the elementary fluorine.

Please don't confuse the two. Chris Bryson does in his article, which is bad.

Similar example that most people find easier to grasp: Chlorine, the element, is a toxic gas. It's ionized form, chloride, is part of sodium chloride, i.e., table salt. Which is essential for human life and frequently added to our food.
 
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Dammit, I spent too long getting stuff from the book to list that I got auto-logged out. Arrrrgh!
 
Yes, he addresses the differences at the beginning, and uses the compound names when available but otherwise says fluoride for the element and it's multiple manifestations as that usage is approved per the US National Academy of Sciences. It still is a bit confusing though.

He talks about hydrofluoric acid as a vapor and as a catalyst in oil refining, and how it was found to be not safe at any level in dilute and anhydrous form. The lab that did the research essentially sold the ADA on fluoridating water, to make that story short. I'm only concerned with airborne toxicity, as it's been said to cause lung hemorrhaging and kidney and liver failure, plus animal deaths at 19 ppm.
 
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