Florida and Michigan Delegates Count, Now. Umm, yey.

Beerina

Sarcastic Conqueror of Notions
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Mar 3, 2004
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Well, Hillary agreed to give Obama her delegates.


Oh, surprise! Florida and Michigan's delegates' votes will "count" now.



count : v not count; be meaningless; be pointless; q.v. moot Now that the other candidate has given up, we can count the FUBARed votes from the states that would have put her over the top and thus not look like undemocratic asses, and in a way the hoi polloi we manhandle in our search for power won't notice.
 
If Obama doesn't get in, I'd consider him somewhat accountable, perhaps, but the Democrats moreso for botching their processes, botching the primary, botching the election...

...

ETA: Too early to tell, obviously, and I haven't discounted them yet... It's just that you want the side you're cheering for to be ahead early and to stay ahead through the end, no? ;)
 
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I'm not particularly Democratic <-- note the capital D, but I just enjoy, well.

A picture is worth a thousand words: :popcorn2
 
When's the DNC? I thought it was this weekend?!
Oh wait, was it just a convention of the Dems that was this weekend, not the convention? :D
 
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Well, Hillary agreed to give Obama her delegates.


Oh, surprise! Florida and Michigan's delegates' votes will "count" now.



count : v not count; be meaningless; be pointless; q.v. moot Now that the other candidate has given up, we can count the FUBARed votes from the states that would have put her over the top and thus not look like undemocratic asses, and in a way the hoi polloi we manhandle in our search for power won't notice.

I'm not sure if I "get it"...

The only reason why Florida and Michigan's delegates weren't reinstated in full was precisely because they would have gave the nomination to Hillary at the very end of the nomination process, a scenario that would have destroy the credibility of the DNC.

Now that we know Hillary won't be the nominate, nobody care if they are be sited in full or not. It's just gracious for Obama and the DNC to allow it.

Florida and Michigan were originally stripped of their delegates in order to make them irrelevant in the nomination process, and this is exactly what happened.
 
Let me see if I have this right.

The Democrats in Florida and Michigan were warned that if they moved their primaries up they would be penalized and might not have their delegates counted.

Hillary herself agreed to this months before the election took place as did Obama who actually took his name off the ballot in Michigan. All candidates agreed that they would not campaign in either state.

It only became a problem when Hillary got behind in the votes and she conveniently "forgot" that she agreed to this whole shooting match months before. Party rules are party rules, you don't get to change the rules when they don't fit your new situation.

Now it's the DNC and Obama's fault? It's so bad that to punish the DNC (who in my eyes didn't do anything wrong) you are either going to vote for McCain or not vote at all (which in effect is voting for McCain).

Crazy talk.

This is simple, I don't like either party but I face the realities of the world. There are VERY few people I agree with 100% of the time. Taking that into account I agree MORE, warts and all, with the Democrats and Obama this time around than I do with McSame and the Republicans. Simple.

If you agree more with Obama than McCain you are a fool if you sit this election out or if you vote against your interests. In my world that is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
 
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Now it's the DNC and Obama's fault? It's so bad that to punish the DNC (who in my eyes didn't do anything wrong) you are either going to vote for McCain or not vote at all (which in effect is voting for McCain).

I should note that, strictly speaking, I'm talking about the appearance of the Democrats botching things! I'm not actually in possession of enough of the facts to have an insider's opinion on how things have unfolded. The troubling aspect is that appearances and spin count in such things as elections...

ETA: and yes, genuine (what, liberal? Democrat?) Hillary supporters would be foolish to vote for McCain, just because they're mad at Obama...
 
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I should note that, strictly speaking, I'm talking about the appearance of the Democrats botching things! I'm not actually in possession of enough of the facts to have an insider's opinion on how things have unfolded. The troubling aspect is that appearances and spin count in such things as elections...

This is so true, which is why I posted what I did. The truth is often much different than the spin the average Joe picks up.

The truth is that Florida and Michigan f*'ed up big time. The more the spin is propagated in the press and on the InterNOT the more the DNC will spin out of control. It's hard enough fighting the GOP spin machine without the Dem's creating their own landmines.

ETA: and yes, genuine (what, liberal? Democrat?) Hillary supporters would be foolish to vote for McCain, just because they're mad at Obama...

:)

Yet many will do just that.
 
I wonder if it's somewhat exaggerated.

In fact, the buzz about disgruntled Clinton voters switching to McCain may partly be some more "Operation Chaos" (tm) ...

To be fair, there may be people switching to McCain, not out of spite, but because though they preferred Clinton, they believe McCain will do a better job than Obama. It sounds nutty, but it doesn't seem totally implausible to me, especially with McCain's centrist dalliances...
 
It only became a problem when Hillary got behind in the votes and she conveniently "forgot" that she agreed to this whole shooting match months before. Party rules are party rules, you don't get to change the rules when they don't fit your new situation.

I don't think Hillary ever claimed she forgot. It was headline news for several days.

As for party rules, the party ruled that Michigan and Florida were not going to be fully seated. It's the DNC that is now changing its ruling because it will no longer effect the outcome. It's basically a move hoping that Michigan and Florida voters will be dumb enough to think their states fully mattered in the final outcome.

Now it's the DNC and Obama's fault?

It's the DNC's fault, yes. Not Obama's though.

It's so bad that to punish the DNC (who in my eyes didn't do anything wrong) you are either going to vote for McCain or not vote at all (which in effect is voting for McCain).

Contrary to popular opinion, not voting =/= voting.
 
I don't think Hillary ever claimed she forgot. It was headline news for several days.

"Forgot" was an exaggeration on my part, a failed attempt at sarcasm.

Even then while she was campaigning for "Florida and Michigan voters rights"....

:rolleyes:

....she did choose to omit the fact that she agreed to the party rules before the primary season took off. That wasn't really highlighted in her logic at the time. And I understand why it was not a highlight of her case, I just disagree with the whole case in the first place.

As for party rules, the party ruled that Michigan and Florida were not going to be fully seated. It's the DNC that is now changing its ruling because it will no longer effect the outcome. It's basically a move hoping that Michigan and Florida voters will be dumb enough to think their states fully mattered in the final outcome.

I don't disagree with that assessment, we are talking American politics after all right?

I still don't blame the DNC at all.

The original rule was valid because everyone discussed it first, the states INCLUDING Florida and Michigan voted in agreement THEN Florida and Michigan moved their dates.

I come from PA, I don't like not having a say about the nomination process because we vote so late. I see why Florida and Michigan folks are upset at Iowa and New Hampshire but... come on... the rules are the rules.

That and Florida only matters because Hillary still had her name on the ballot. Had she taken her name off the ballot and not campaigned there (which I believe she agreed to do before the primary season) this would not be an issue. Again, not the fault of the DNC at all.


It's the DNC's fault, yes. Not Obama's though.

See above.... the DNC is only to blame for playing politics now by reseating the delegates but I contend that is just about their only option.

Had Hillary not made a big stink about it as a last ditch gamble (and going against the rules SHE agreed to) or had the Democrats in Florida and Michigan not broken the rules (which they ALSO agreed to) we would not be talking about this months later heading into the convention.


Contrary to popular opinion, not voting =/= voting.


I disagree. It's a numbers game, it's a vote after all.

If you have 20 people who you are counting on voting for you and I have 19 counting on voting for me and they all show up I lose. But if 2 of your people decide not to show up you lose.

Both candidates are expecting their base to turn out for the election. If 10% of the people expected to vote for Obama just stay home the outcome is the same as if they voted for McCain, Obama loses.
 
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I don't disagree with that assessment, we are talking American politics after all right?

I still don't blame the DNC at all.

The original rule was valid because everyone discussed it first, the states INCLUDING Florida and Michigan voted in agreement THEN Florida and Michigan moved their dates.

So you are arguing that one DNC rule was more valid than the other? The way I see it is, if you're going to play party politics and want to hold a primary, you need to follow the rules. In that way, Michigan and Florida share responsibility, as does Clinton. However, the DNC basically traded one rule-breaking for another. After all the hubbub about seating the delegates and the final ruling, they decided to break it because they want Michigan and Florida to feel included so that those Democratic voters won't feel pissed off and refuse to show up in November. They're just doing what they think is in their best interests. But then again so was Clinton. Then again, so were Michigan and Florida. It boils down to the fact that all three groups share the blame.

That and Florida only matters because Hillary still had her name on the ballot. Had she taken her name off the ballot and not campaigned there (which I believe she agreed to do before the primary season) this would not be an issue. Again, not the fault of the DNC at all.

But now the DNC is changing their own rulings yet again. What they've shown is that their rules really don't matter and can and will be changed for political expediency.

I disagree. It's a numbers game, it's a vote after all.

If you have 20 people who you are counting on voting for you and I have 19 counting on voting for me and they all show up I lose. But if 2 of your people decide not to show up you lose.

Both candidates are expecting their base to turn out for the election. If 10% of the people expected to vote for Obama just stay home the outcome is the same as if they voted for McCain, Obama loses.

It's still not a vote. More than simple outcomes matter. If you're going to cry, "if only two more of my supporters had shown up!" you may as well cry, "if only I had run unopposed!"
 
So you are arguing that one DNC rule was more valid than the other? The way I see it is, if you're going to play party politics and want to hold a primary, you need to follow the rules. In that way, Michigan and Florida share responsibility, as does Clinton. However, the DNC basically traded one rule-breaking for another. After all the hubbub about seating the delegates and the final ruling, they decided to break it because they want Michigan and Florida to feel included so that those Democratic voters won't feel pissed off and refuse to show up in November. They're just doing what they think is in their best interests. But then again so was Clinton. Then again, so were Michigan and Florida. It boils down to the fact that all three groups share the blame.



It's all politics, I think we both agree on that.

The DNC said from the get go it was possible that some, most or all of the delegates would be left on the table if any state broke ranks. "Possible" is the key word there. They were going to seat 50% from each state, at the behest of Obama they decided to seat 100% and it's pretty clear why.

Blame Florida and Michigan for breaking the rules that THEY voted on, blame Hillary for trying to work around the rules SHE agreed to and blame the DNC for trying to patch it up after the fact.

3 wrongs don't make a right but I think it is easy to see which of these "offences" are more egregious. The DNC is only looking for a way out after they were painted into a corner by Florida, Michigan and Hillary. Fixing it up now pales in comparison to the frustration Florida and Michigan caused and the damage to the party brought by Hillary.

Furthermore, the GOP stripped half of their states delegates for doing exactly what Florida and Michigan did, and the GOP will probably reinstate all delegates as well.

As I said, it's politics. Everything is a balancing act. I don't agree with anyone on the planet 100% of the time so I have to pick people to vote for based on issues I most agree with knowing I am never going to completely agree with them on all issues all the time.


But now the DNC is changing their own rulings yet again. What they've shown is that their rules really don't matter and can and will be changed for political expediency.

Again, it was possible any state that moved their primary could lose their delegates. At that point, according to Dean

First, either state can choose to resubmit a plan and run a process to select delegates to the convention; second, they can wait until this summer and appeal to the Convention Credentials Committee

They looked at the second action here, the committee took the advice of Obama and eventually seated all the delegates. It was never a lock that a specific action had to be taken according to the Dem party rules so I don't believe any rules were broken. If they were both parties are guilty because the GOP rules are worded pretty much the same way.


It's still not a vote. More than simple outcomes matter. If you're going to cry, "if only two more of my supporters had shown up!" you may as well cry, "if only I had run unopposed!"

Sorry, lost me there.

If your people show up and mine don't you win. By not showing up my people helped you to get elected. They took an action, in this case they stayed away from the polling booth. Every action has a consequence and in this example you win the election.

I know there is a need by some people in the political world to make things complicated but this is a pretty cut and dried business. Get your people's butts into voting booths then try to persuade undecided folks to either vote for you or, if all else fails, not vote for the other guy / gal.
 
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Let me see if I have this right.

The Democrats in Florida and Michigan were warned that if they moved their primaries up they would be penalized and might not have their delegates counted.

Hillary herself agreed to this months before the election took place as did Obama who actually took his name off the ballot in Michigan. All candidates agreed that they would not campaign in either state.

It only became a problem when Hillary got behind in the votes and she conveniently "forgot" that she agreed to this whole shooting match months before. Party rules are party rules, you don't get to change the rules when they don't fit your new situation.

Now it's the DNC and Obama's fault? It's so bad that to punish the DNC (who in my eyes didn't do anything wrong) you are either going to vote for McCain or not vote at all (which in effect is voting for McCain).

.
As to the DNC, they conveniently forgot that realpolitick always beats "let's pretend pointless rules designed only to make unimportant states feel important have something to do with reality" (and feel free to check - I have been warning about the consequences here since January/early February.). If the DNC had not (messed)*up, it's about 90% certain that it would be a likeley winning Hillary-O'Bama ticket as Hillary was on a roll that would have kept up - but O'Bama would still have been out there. The DNC (stupidity)* made the outcome of the only voting that counts much less certain. Therefore , while I will not vote for a republicker ever, I will give no support beyond the vote to the DNC. This does not extend to individual candidates I support.:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:jaw-dropp:)





*pick the vilest level of words you know, and the lowest level of malign ignorance you know to substitute in these ()
 
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It's all politics, I think we both agree on that.

The DNC said from the get go it was possible that some, most or all of the delegates would be left on the table if any state broke ranks. "Possible" is the key word there. They were going to seat 50% from each state, at the behest of Obama they decided to seat 100% and it's pretty clear why.

The rules committee determined that they would only seat half.

Blame Florida and Michigan for breaking the rules that THEY voted on, blame Hillary for trying to work around the rules SHE agreed to and blame the DNC for trying to patch it up after the fact.

Then we're almost in agreement. I blame all three, but I blame the DNC's short sightedness and unwillingness to stick to their rules for the problem.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/politicalintelligence/2008/08/florida_michiga.html

Boston said:
"Some people say the message is that rules don't matter," said Roosevelt, whose day job is CEO of the Tufts Health Plan. The more important message, conveyed not only in the reinstatement of their full voting privileges but also in awarding them choice seats on the convention floor, Roosevelt said, is "it shows we want to win in November."

The message is really both. The rules don't matter. We'll try to punish you, but if that's too much of a hassle we'll just forgo the rules if its expedient. The rules don't matter because they want to win in November.

3 wrongs don't make a right but I think it is easy to see which of these "offences" are more egregious. The DNC is only looking for a way out after they were painted into a corner by Florida, Michigan and Hillary. Fixing it up now pales in comparison to the frustration Florida and Michigan caused and the damage to the party brought by Hillary.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/08/25/AR2007082500275.html?hpid=topnews

Basically the DNC got into a game of chicken with Florida and Michigan. They tried to be heavy-handed, but didn't strategize well, or didn't ask themselves what will happen if Florida and Michigan don't back down.

Furthermore, the GOP stripped half of their states delegates for doing exactly what Florida and Michigan did, and the GOP will probably reinstate all delegates as well.

We'll see. I haven't heard much about that yet.

They looked at the second action here, the committee took the advice of Obama and eventually seated all the delegates. It was never a lock that a specific action had to be taken according to the Dem party rules so I don't believe any rules were broken. If they were both parties are guilty because the GOP rules are worded pretty much the same way.

My understanding is that they were officially stripped of their delegates by the rules committee.




Sorry, lost me there.

If your people show up and mine don't you win. By not showing up my people helped you to get elected. They took an action, in this case they stayed away from the polling booth. Every action has a consequence and in this example you win the election.

But its still not voting. Think about it this way. Suppose you and I lived in the same place. You support Obama and plan to vote for him and I support McCain and plan to vote for him. We realize our votes will just cancel each other out. Therefore, we decide the smartest thing to do would be for both of us to same time, energy, and gas money and just hang out at my house together and watch TV. By your reasoning though, you have still somehow voted for McCain.
 
I'm not sure if I "get it"...

The only reason why Florida and Michigan's delegates weren't reinstated in full was precisely because they would have gave the nomination to Hillary at the very end of the nomination process, a scenario that would have destroy the credibility of the DNC.

Now that we know Hillary won't be the nominate, nobody care if they are be sited in full or not. It's just gracious for Obama and the DNC to allow it.

Florida and Michigan were originally stripped of their delegates in order to make them irrelevant in the nomination process, and this is exactly what happened.

Wow, reading the OP, and then your post, it's a great example of how spin changes the entire tone.. I mean, you both said the exact same thing, just with your own slant..
 
Just remember the moral of the story, kids:

It's okay to break the rules if you really want to, so long as you throw a big fit and make threats afterward. In the end, you'll get your way.
 
What's the big deal? Florida and Michigan broke the rules. They were punished enough so that the result of their unsanctioned elections did not affect the final outcome, just as it should be. Now that the final outcome is decided, they can go ahead and join the party, have a good time, and maybe heal some wounds.

Rule-breakers were punished and forgiven, but their punishment (effectively) stands. Why exactly is this wrong?
 
Rule-breakers were punished and forgiven, but their punishment (effectively) stands. Why exactly is this wrong?
In a pragmatic sense and acknowledging that we live in a complicated world, you are correct.

On the other hand, it will be interesting to see what people take away from this mess 4 years from now. (or 3 years and some change) Will these states, or others, break these rules again knowing that their primary votes will ultimately be counted anyway? Knowing that, will the punishment of not being considered an influence on the rest of the country still be there? The DNC doesn't control that. The public's perception does.

This time, the punishment was almost a happy accident that worked in the DNC's favor. Like I said, it depends on how history remembers the sequence of events.
 

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