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Finally saw Sylvia Browne in person!

Calculon

Critical Thinker
Calculon
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Messages
294
In November 2008, Sylvia Browne was to appear at the Orpheum Theatre in downtown Los Angeles. Interested people from the IIG (Independent Investigations Group) and CFI West (Center for Inquiry West) were planning to be outside and pass out fliers mentioning Sylvia Browne's poor past performance, information on how cold reading works, etc... Just to prime the audience to perhaps be a bit more skeptical.

But she canceled.

So a few months back, I planned to get a few cheap ($10) tickets for an appearance of Sylvia Browne at the Gibson Amphitheatre at Universal Studios that was to take place Oct 3, 2009.

But she canceled.

But it was re-scheduled for December 29, 2009. So I went ahead and got a few. October would have been more convenient for us, so thanks for nothing, Sylvia. Mark Edward heard about the visit and wanted to attend as well.
Now why did I buy tickets rather than do the fliering, you might ask? Well, the Gibson Amphitheatre and Universal Studios is private property with lots of security just itching to kick out people fliering or protesting or doing anything but buying stuff. And public sidewalks are too far away for any use.

We didn't have any specific plans. We were mainly going to see how she conducts her shows for future knowledge. She is supposed to be on her final world tour, but we have heard that before. And her well-trained grifter son Christopher was present...so we could see him as well! Bonus.

We went through the main entrance towards the theatre and were handed little red raffle tickets. I inquired about them and was told that Sylvia will call out a few numbers at the end and people called could ask her a question. Now I assumed that specific people would be called regardless, but surprisingly...one of our tickets was called at the end. (When we all got inside and met up with Mark who arrived earlier to check out the space, I suggested we give our tickets to Mark, as he wanted to ask her a question)

Now, our seats were the very back row, but the theatre had more empty seats than occupied seats, and that was not including that much of the theatre was blocked-off by curtains. So we located ourselves closer to the action. We still had almost all empty seats behind us and in front. But right after Christopher Dufresne escorted mom to the stage, he and his female friend sat about 10 feet in front of us. This awesome psychic couldn't feel the skeptics sitting right behind him.
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Mark , I and another person dropped info off in several bathrooms so I hope some were seen during intermission. Also during intermission, Christopher answered questions from people who formed a winding line in the upper section of the theatre. (He did the same after the show when Sylvia was busy signing her book).

After Montel talked about himself, trying to impress us, thus showing if he trusts Sylvia, we should as well...then Sylvia imparting sage advice like consuming less sugar in one's diet, we got down to the readings.

Most were pablum like people asking the name of their spirit guides, how departed loved ones are doing...things that can never be tested. And others were things that would not come to pass for a few months or years (like love life queries and children in the future). I have to go through my full video to pick out the best bits, but here is a short video I made when Mark went down at the end to ask his question. None of us knew what he was going to do, so we couldn't wait either.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BradlE-Uloc

The names Mark mentioned corresponded to names mentioned on fliers he left in bathrooms and in the theatre before the show started. So the hope is that a few people with the combo of the seeing the flier and seeing the collapse would be curious enough to look them up.

We are not deluded to think that her true followers would be swayed by any facts presented by us...we are very aware of cognitive dissonance. But for a very quickly planned event during the holidays, it went pretty well...and we learned much for next time.

I will add more when I have a chance to go through my video more.

Mark posted about it here as well.
 
What was most disturbing to me was that she didn't immediately recognize the name Opal Jo Jennings. :confused:

Either 1) she's partly deaf, or 2) she doesn't read the articles on Robert Lancaster's site and lets her staff do that for her. This isn't even the first time it's happened (that she didn't recognize a name like this - maybe even the same name, I'd have to go find that article) as Jon Ronson wrote about something similar happening in an interview he did with her on a cruise.

She evidently would need to be confronted with these cases on a name-by-name basis as she has apparently taken no interest in finding things out for herself.

Next, though, did anyone else think that the way Montel Williams behaved with her is kind of like the way you'd behave with a favorite but slightly batty old aunt who was going senile?? He seemed to be there to jump in whenever she got mixed up or came off sounding too rude or started off down the wrong track, things she never used to do and wouldn't have needed any help with. Maybe her mind is going, who knows.

At any rate, I'm betting it was Montel who recognized those names after a beat or two and decided not to allow your friend to disrupt the show.
 
I didn't much care for Mark's approach to debunking. Faking an illness would seem to just give believers more reason not to trust, and so more reason not to listen to, a skeptic with an opposing viewpoint.
 
Denver said:
I didn't much care for Mark's approach to debunking. Faking an illness would seem to just give believers more reason not to trust, and so more reason not to listen to, a skeptic with an opposing viewpoint.
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I agree. Also, believers will only say that she was psychic enough to know he was faking the illness and too smart to be tricked into a reaction.
 
It is hard to say what a good approach would be. I think Mark had also considered a more direct route that would have had him ejected, but you never know what you are going to do until the time comes. We had to plan this at the last minute as the holidays altered who could even attend. You want to attract the crowd's attention for sure. We learned a few things that would help in the future, though.

I am not convinced that Sylvia didn't recognize the names. When Mark collapsed, she gave no reaction, although Montel showed (or feigned) concern. From inside, it appeared to me she did not want to acknowledge Mark at all, and just to continue on. I think if she really believed a person collapsed while speaking to her, she would acknowledge it. I think she should have anyway, so as not to look odd in front of the audience, but she just plowed on through the next question.
 
Wow! I would have to say a stop Montel site is in order.
He is just as bad as she is. He knows she is a fraud and a con and he is helping her.
Things people do for money amazes me.
All those fools lined up like that.
Asking if they'll get the job they want or meet someone.
How do they think their dead loved one is doing?
They can't just cherish the memory of them, they have to know how the whole rotting in the ground thing is going.
Those kind of people really get under my skin.
If they want that job then do what it takes to get it.
If they want to meet someone then go out to where the kind of people they want to meet are.
I'm guessing that wouldn't be a Sylvia/Montel show.

Anyways Montel needs his ass kicked in my opinion.
 
Denver said:
I didn't much care for Mark's approach to debunking. Faking an illness would seem to just give believers more reason not to trust, and so more reason not to listen to, a skeptic with an opposing viewpoint.
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Also, if the EMTs were called for a feigned illness, that could actually be a crime. It's a false alarm.
 
I think Universal has EMTs on staff, so unless they were called from a municipal authority, it probably shouldn't matter.

Ward
 
Good, that makes me feel better. But I still disagree with the fainting act. I think the questions were sufficient to make the point.
 
The people applauding when she weasels, yikes! Almost as scary as Sylvia Browne's lack of reaction to a man fainting. (Beautiful crumple, btw.)

The faint was a bit over the top but I like Mark's "Histrionics? I'll show you histrionics!" approach. It could have been a grand show someplace where Sylvia couldn't cut it short. Two actors going head-to-head in an epic farce-off.
 
LibraryLady said:
Also, if the EMTs were called for a feigned illness, that could actually be a crime. It's a false alarm.
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They were from the theatre itself....not from an outside source.

I don't know if Mark posts here...but he could go further into it. The person who came knew what happened and did not leave angry.
 
Did she look like a rectum with glasses or was she different when not on telly?
 
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Not reacting when someone faints in front of you really shows what kind of person Sylvia is. Gee, you think she would fake a little humanity for the sake of her fans.
At least Montel had the good grace to ask if Mark was okay.
 
There is so much more to this story than here on the forum. Mark will be interviewed tonight by Bryan and Baxter on Warning: Radio 6pm (pacific time) you can "chat" live and get questions answered by Mark. He will tell the whole story tonight.

Susan
 
Either 1) she's partly deaf, or 2) she doesn't read the articles on Robert Lancaster's site and lets her staff do that for her. This isn't even the first time it's happened (that she didn't recognize a name like this - maybe even the same name, I'd have to go find that article) as Jon Ronson wrote about something similar happening in an interview he did with her on a cruise.

She evidently would need to be confronted with these cases on a name-by-name basis as she has apparently taken no interest in finding things out for herself.

Next, though, did anyone else think that the way Montel Williams behaved with her is kind of like the way you'd behave with a favorite but slightly batty old aunt who was going senile?? He seemed to be there to jump in whenever she got mixed up or came off sounding too rude or started off down the wrong track, things she never used to do and wouldn't have needed any help with. Maybe her mind is going, who knows.

At any rate, I'm betting it was Montel who recognized those names after a beat or two and decided not to allow your friend to disrupt the show.
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Nothing wrong with her hearing. She heard every person ask a question and had a quick response. In fact several times she did not even let the person finish the question...."Sylvia, I was wondering..." Sylvia cuts the person off and says, "not this year but the next one" and on and on.

Sylvia knew very clearly what was going on by the second name that comes up. She just could not think quickly enough. She says that he is hearing voices and that the names are just "spirit guides". What a nightmare for her, she was totally taken off guard by Mark, she did not know how to get out of it. What she should have done was say, "you sir are a fraud, sit down" or something like that, but she didn't. What she did do and was more interesting is she did not "out" Mark as a skeptic and a fraud. Minutes before she could "clearly see" your spirit guides name and what your dead brother was doing right now ect... but she COULD NOT see Mark as a fraud! I'm totally shocked that no one has noticed this. What better proof do we need to show her for what she is?

Montel is her enabler. He clearly would stop her and give her time to think about what she was saying. He would try to clear up some of the questions and straighten her out. Too bad the man has no honor. He is not just selling junk on late night TV. So don't tell me that we can't get these frauds off TV, the skeptic community CAN make a difference.

Susan
 
I didn't much care for Mark's approach to debunking. Faking an illness would seem to just give believers more reason not to trust, and so more reason not to listen to, a skeptic with an opposing viewpoint.
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Mark didn't do the "fake illness" for the audience. He wasn't out to punk the audience. He was trying to get to Sylvia herself. I'm sure he did. She is notorious for her fits after being confronted with an opposing viewpoint. I bet she ranted and raved for days after this encounter.

What is better is that she knows that the skeptic community has taken it up a notch. She will not know if that sweet little lady in front of her at her book signing, or at the microphone is going to punk her. There may be hidden cameras and news crews with their cameras at the ready whenever she goes out to do a public performance. She has canceled her shows in the past whenever she thinks that a skeptic might disrupt.

Much more is planned for Sylvia and her ilk. She knows she is vulnerable. They will have to change the format of questions to either only trusted people can ask questions. OR they will have to submit the question on paper or to someone else to allow Sylvia to answer. How lame will that be, her adoring fans won't like that one bit. They will have to continue to restrict access to her fans until she will have to just retire completely.

It is just a matter of time before some news agency again "outs her" Anderson Cooper was amazing, but he moved on to other stories. Still the eye will come back to her, and with people like Mark Edward waiting to pounce on her, they will continue to get her.

Oh back to my original comment.

Mark could not just stand there forever faking the "psychic crap" he had to get out of there somehow, and he did not want to be "handled" by her bodyguards. By passing out he was able to make a big impact on the audience that something special just happened. AND he was taken away by people who ran the theater and not Sylvia's people. (that story you will be amazed with tonight on Warning: Radio).

What did you think would happen? Mark would be standing at the mike and then politely just go back to his chair? They might have had to haul him kicking and screaming away to the boos and jeers of the audience. Did you notice the one person who asked a skeptical question (not very well asked BTW) was booed. He didn't do anything to influence the audience.

Mark was NOT debunking! He was letting Sylvia and Montel know that skeptics can get close. Mark was also showing us the skeptic community how easy it is to punk these monsters. You just have to have some nerve and stand up to them.
 
sgf8 said:
Mark didn't do the "fake illness" for the audience. He wasn't out to punk the audience...

...By passing out he was able to make a big impact on the audience that something special just happened.
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Whether or not he intended to send a message to the audience (and the comments above make that unclear at best), there WAS an audience, and they did see some guy passing out. If they don't know he was a skeptic, they are not going to care about Sylvia's reaction: the passing-out will over-shadow anything else in that event. If they do find out he was a skeptic and this was all just pretend, he will not be seen as having revealed anything about Sylvia: only about skeptics and their tactics. Which in this case, was deceit.

Skeptics should not be about deceit. Deceit is something they fight.

What did you think would happen? Mark would be standing at the mike and then politely just go back to his chair?
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Why not? Come up with the best 'gotcha' questions you can. When accomplished, sit down. Show the audience you can argue by intelligence, by reason, and by the truth. Show that skeptics are different, and better, then the likes of Sylvia. Don't give them reason to dismiss what could be truly educational for them.

They might have had to haul him kicking and screaming away to the boos and jeers of the audience. Did you notice the one person who asked a skeptical question (not very well asked BTW) was booed. He didn't do anything to influence the audience.
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It is not clear that he had no positive effect on someone in the audience, or even on Montel, for that matter. Maybe not. But at least he didn't deceive anyone.

Mark was NOT debunking! He was letting Sylvia and Montel know that skeptics can get close. Mark was also showing us the skeptic community how easy it is to punk these monsters. You just have to have some nerve and stand up to them.
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He could have done the same thing without the play-acting. And by playing his game with Sylvia, he missed a good opportunity to educate the audience. The guy who got booed, in my opinion, was the only real one with the nerve to stand up to her, and cast the light on who SHE is and what SHE can do to deceive people, and not the other way around.
 
sgf8 said:
What she did do and was more interesting is she did not "out" Mark as a skeptic and a fraud. Minutes before she could "clearly see" your spirit guides name and what your dead brother was doing right now ect... but she COULD NOT see Mark as a fraud! I'm totally shocked that no one has noticed this. What better proof do we need to show her for what she is?
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For those of us inside, we saw this. I don't have it on tape, but more people than numbers called showed up to ask their questions. Montel noticed this and Sylvia said she would "know" if the questioner should not have been in line. (and at this point, us other skeptics assumed Mark was one of those people without a proper ticket) but she answered all people in line and didn't out Mark or one of those cheaters.




Denver said:
Whether or not he intended to send a message to the audience (and the comments above make that unclear at best), there WAS an audience, and they did see some guy passing out. If they don't know he was a skeptic, they are not going to care about Sylvia's reaction: the passing-out will over-shadow anything else in that event. If they do find out he was a skeptic and this was all just pretend, he will not be seen as having revealed anything about Sylvia: only about skeptics and their tactics. Which in this case, was deceit.

Skeptics should not be about deceit. Deceit is something they fight.
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I think that there are many methods to out frauds like Sylvia Browne. For myself, I would have fliered with info on her and how to spot a cold reader, etc if it were feasible, but the venue made that totally ineffective. But I would have no problem if Mark did his own thing inside at the same time. Rattling Sylvia is always a good goal. And this particular stunt did NOT confuse the audience and make them distrust skeptics. After the event when Mark was free and we were departing, a few times audience members asked him how he was. He did not give them any idea it was fake and thanked them for their concern. But, I can see faking being a devotee of Sylvia, getting her to say things that are obviously crap and then doing a "gotcha" on her. Pretending at the beginning gets her to open up, and sets the stage that hopefully some audience members will wonder why was she fooled by the faker.

This show below was deceit too. But I think it was very effective and got media attention outside of it's original airing:

BBC 3 Bullsh!t detectors exposes three mediums

The show made a fake website, a fake story and used fake props. I thought it was brilliant, and needs to be done more ;)
 
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