• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Federal Gun Owner License

Dr. Keith

Not a doctor.
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Messages
26,034
Location
Texas
Would it be possible to discuss just this one issue in a single thread without talking about other issues surrounding gun control and shootings in the US?

Here is my hypothetical (I hesitate to call it a proposal since I haven't really thought it out much):

What is a Federal Gun Owners License?

A Federal Gun Owner License that would be required for gun or ammo purchases, transfers or loans, whether through stores or person to person, and the validity could be checked via website or 1-800 number instantly.

Any transfer of possession or ownership of guns or ammo to a person without a license would be a crime and any possession or ownership of a gun or ammo by a person without a license would be a crime. An exception would be made for licensed gun ranges where guns could be shared by the range or individuals on premises without any verification, but no ammo or guns could leave the range with anyone who does not have a license. A further exception could be made for temporary possession of a firearm or ammo in the presence of and under the supervision of a license holder.

I'm sure I'm missing some other needed exceptions here, such as turning in lost items or some other issues. I'd appreciate those pointing out the obvious misses being polite about my shortcomings.

How to get a Federal Gun Owners License?

Start with a background check. Just kidding, start with a fee and then you get to the background check.

Then having a unified training course that goes through the basics of safe gun ownership in some detail. Especially safe storage and the responsibilities of gun ownership. That should be the focus of this license: safe storage. A cursory overview of gun safety would also be required and a summary of the applicable laws governing the safe storage and transport of firearms in the jurisdiction and nearby jurisdictions. I'm imagining 8-12 hours spread out over four class sessions, but I'm not wed to the idea. I am wed to the idea that the instructor has to sign puff on each person that passes their class as to their understanding o the course material.

Some sort of medical and mental health check. I think pilots have the closest analogue, but this would be a bit different.

How to Maintain a Federal Gun Owners License?

Must be updated every 2 years with a new back ground check and a shortened refresher course on safe gun transportation and storage. A one time class, but again with instructor sign off on comprehension.

Any citizen may file a complaint against a License holder that their license should be reviewed. This would include doctors, family members, co-workers, etc. Repeat frivolous claims should be actionable against the complainant. And a complaint alone is not grounds for losing the license, just grounds for reviewing the license.

Courts and doctors would have the authority to issue a hold against a license holder, effectively invalidating their license for a period of time. The hold would have to be based on convictions, bail terms, plea agreements,etc. for the court to ensure due process. For the doctors it would be based on meds being prescribed at the time or medical determination that the person was no longer fit to safely be trusted with a firearm. This would be reviewable, of course, to provide due process.

A hold could be converted to a revocation of the license in certain cases. Some would allow the person to reapply, some would not.

Any fraudulent information in an application would be grounds for prosecution. A law that is not currently enforced, but should be, when it comes to background checks.

I've got to get on the phone for a client, but that's what I came up with off the top of my head. Fire away!
 
I expect that the same reason why one does not see some sort of Federal Driver's License is why one does not see some sort of Federal Gun Owner's License.

Generally speaking, the Federal government is only supposed to get involved when things started crossing state lines. Therefore, unless some sort of compelling legal case can be made that shows how Federal Gun Owner's License involves interstate commerce, then one will not see such a license.
 
Such a licensing system works in the rest of the western world. It also works in the USA where, for example Texan CCW permit holders commit very few crimes indeed.
 
Would it be possible to discuss just this one issue in a single thread without talking about other issues surrounding gun control and shootings in the US?

Here is my hypothetical (I hesitate to call it a proposal since I haven't really thought it out much):

What is a Federal Gun Owners License?

A Federal Gun Owner License that would be required for gun or ammo purchases, transfers or loans, whether through stores or person to person, and the validity could be checked via website or 1-800 number instantly.

Any transfer of possession or ownership of guns or ammo to a person without a license would be a crime and any possession or ownership of a gun or ammo by a person without a license would be a crime. An exception would be made for licensed gun ranges where guns could be shared by the range or individuals on premises without any verification, but no ammo or guns could leave the range with anyone who does not have a license. A further exception could be made for temporary possession of a firearm or ammo in the presence of and under the supervision of a license holder.
Will not work very well for folks who do not have a nearby "licensed gun range" or for those of us that do most of our hunting and target shooting on private property.

I'm sure I'm missing some other needed exceptions here, such as turning in lost items or some other issues. I'd appreciate those pointing out the obvious misses being polite about my shortcomings.

How to get a Federal Gun Owners License?

Start with a background check. Just kidding, start with a fee and then you get to the background check.
No fee. I should not have to pay a fee for the privilege of exercising a civil right.

Then having a unified training course that goes through the basics of safe gun ownership in some detail. Especially safe storage and the responsibilities of gun ownership. That should be the focus of this license: safe storage. A cursory overview of gun safety would also be required and a summary of the applicable laws governing the safe storage and transport of firearms in the jurisdiction and nearby jurisdictions. I'm imagining 8-12 hours spread out over four class sessions, but I'm not wed to the idea. I am wed to the idea that the instructor has to sign puff on each person that passes their class as to their understanding o the course material.
Who pays for this? Who provides this training? If there is no local "licensed gun range" where will this training take place?

Some sort of medical and mental health check. I think pilots have the closest analogue, but this would be a bit different.

How to Maintain a Federal Gun Owners License?

Must be updated every 2 years with a new back ground check and a shortened refresher course on safe gun transportation and storage. A one time class, but again with instructor sign off on comprehension.

Any citizen may file a complaint against a License holder that their license should be reviewed. This would include doctors, family members, co-workers, etc. Repeat frivolous claims should be actionable against the complainant. And a complaint alone is not grounds for losing the license, just grounds for reviewing the license.
How about making any frivolous claim actionable?

For the doctors it would be based on meds being prescribed at the time or medical determination that the person was no longer fit to safely be trusted with a firearm. This would be reviewable, of course, to provide due process.
Which doctor would decide that a patient should not have a license? Will my GP be reporting to the Feds?

Any fraudulent information in an application would be grounds for prosecution. A law that is not currently enforced, but should be, when it comes to background checks.
With this I wholeheartedly agree.
 
Can we not humor these people by responding to their "serious" discussions? I'm so sick and tired of non-Americans telling Americans how to run their own damn country.
 
I expect that the same reason why one does not see some sort of Federal Driver's License is why one does not see some sort of Federal Gun Owner's License.

Generally speaking, the Federal government is only supposed to get involved when things started crossing state lines. Therefore, unless some sort of compelling legal case can be made that shows how Federal Gun Owner's License involves interstate commerce, then one will not see such a license.
That would require a belief that weapons do not cross state lines.
 
Can we not humor these people by responding to their "serious" discussions? I'm so sick and tired of non-Americans telling Americans how to run their own damn country.

Eh? Dr. Keith is in Texas. The only non-USAian posting on this thread, that I know of, is the kiwi right above your post.

ETA: Didn't see Nessie.:o
 
Last edited:
In the UK a non licence holder can shoot a licence holders gun so long as the licence holder is present and proper safety measures put in place. So I agree that restricting non licence holders to shooting at ranges is too restrictive.

In the UK there is a fee, but it only covers part of the cost, the rest of the cost is absorbed by the police and ultimately the tax payer. I think there should be a fee, but it would be a nominal one.

The UK does not have any form of safety course. The onus to be safe is entirely on the licence holder and because they have been background checked, it is reasonable to assume they will be safe. Basic advice can come at the time of application whereby the applicant agrees to be safe and keep their gun safely. If they are not safe then they have their licence and gun taken off them and they are punished.

In the UK any doctor, GP included and the licence holder is expected to report any health issues which may affect their ability to possess a gun. That is not just mental health, having a stroke or dementia or an accident causing paralysis also affects a person ability to have a gun. Failure to do so results in removal of the licence and gun and possibly a punishment.

Any lying in an application will result in a severe punishment and likely life ban from having a licence.

I am using the UK as an example because its licensing system is so effective at stopping the wrong people at getting hold of guns.
 
Can we not humor these people by responding to their "serious" discussions? I'm so sick and tired of non-Americans telling Americans how to run their own damn country.

Funny, 'cause I thought Texas was in America. Well, it just goes to show what happens if you turn your back for a minute.
 
Can we not humor these people by responding to their "serious" discussions? I'm so sick and tired of non-Americans telling Americans how to run their own damn country.

Agreed. It works better when we tell them how to run theirs.
 
Can we not humor these people by responding to their "serious" discussions? I'm so sick and tired of non-Americans telling Americans how to run their own damn country.

There are suggestions being given by people whose countries have very effective licensing systems that mean very few unsuitable can legally possess a gun.

No one is telling Americans how to run their own country.
 
Can we not humor these people by responding to their "serious" discussions? I'm so sick and tired of non-Americans telling Americans how to run their own damn country.

??

The OP is an American
 
Where do I get my free speech license?

FCC

I expect that the same reason why one does not see some sort of Federal Driver's License is why one does not see some sort of Federal Gun Owner's License.

Generally speaking, the Federal government is only supposed to get involved when things started crossing state lines. Therefore, unless some sort of compelling legal case can be made that shows how Federal Gun Owner's License involves interstate commerce, then one will not see such a license.

Yeah, I see it as an expansion of the currently flawed federal background check system.

I was convicted of a non-violent felony. Can I have one?

I'm not sure what the consensus is for most states, but I assume there is some consensus on what sorts of convictions would bar one from having a gun.

What are some convictions that are denied guns in one state but allowed guns in another? Those would be the points for discussion.
 
Will not work very well for folks who do not have a nearby "licensed gun range" or for those of us that do most of our hunting and target shooting on private property.

I tried to cover that by having the bit about being in the presence and under the supervision of a license holder. Maybe that needs work. What do you think?

No fee. I should not have to pay a fee for the privilege of exercising a civil right.

Do you feel the same about state ID cards needed for voting?

I could see a fee waiver for those of lower income. But, otherwise I think a nominal processing fee would be necessary to at least make sure that people who don't really need it don't flood the system with applications.

Who pays for this?

Users.

Who provides this training?

Licensed instructors.

If there is no local "licensed gun range" where will this training take place?

Town hall. No need to ever fire a gun at the class or even have live ammo. May need some guns to demonstrate different locks and their proper usage, but that shouldn't be an issue.

How about making any frivolous claim actionable?

Sure. It's just that we don't do a good job of enforcing some other rules that are more clearly fraud, so I was just saying we would have to action people who abuse the system.

Which doctor would decide that a patient should not have a license? Will my GP be reporting to the Feds?

Any doctor you see. Would need to fill out a form that swears that they have examined you and detail the reason for their report. For obvious reasons most doctors would be very hesitant to take this action, but when prescribing strong pain-killers or treating a person for depression I think they would want to take precautions. Maybe it should be more limited. When do you think a doctor should enter into the picture to make sure a patient they see with mental health issues is not able to obtain guns and ammo?

With this I wholeheartedly agree.

One point of agreement is a place to start. I'm really hoping to build from there, though, so I appreciate your other comments as well.
 
Can we not humor these people by responding to their "serious" discussions? I'm so sick and tired of non-Americans telling Americans how to run their own damn country.

Aw shucks. You think I'm not American enough? Bless your heart.

Such a licensing system works in the rest of the western world. It also works in the USA where, for example Texan CCW permit holders commit very few crimes indeed.

Yeah, Wildcat is really the inspiration for this discussion. He often points out that CHL holders rarely commit crimes, in most states, not just Texas. It struck me as odd, but he is right. I scratched my head a bit and thought why not expand on that success a bit.

That would require a belief that weapons do not cross state lines.

Yeah, the current background checking scheme lays the groundwork for some of this.
 
A license to exercise a Constitutional right is obscene.

Your first step will have to be repealing the 2ndA.
 

Back
Top Bottom