Faith Healers

[Hardenbergh]

Do we need religious excitement (via faith healing ministries such as Benny Hinn) in order to draw people closer to God?

 

[triadboy]

Do we need religious excitement (via faith healing ministries such as Benny Hinn) in order to draw people closer to God?

What else is there?

 

[Hardenbergh]

I meant that some people don't pay attention unless they see someone jump up out of their wheelchair or get a big check in their mailbox.

 

[Brown]

I think Thomas Paine hit the nail on the head.

Of all the modes of evidence that ever were invented to obtain belief to any system or opinion to which the name of religion has been given, that of miracle, however successful the imposition may have been, is the most inconsistent. For, in the first place, whenever recourse is had to show, for the purpose of procuring that belief, (for a miracle, under any idea of the word, is a show), it implies a lameness or weakness in the doctrine that is preached. And, in the second place, it is degrading the Almighty into the character of a showman, playing tricks to amuse and make the people stare and wonder. It is also the most equivocal sort of evidence that can be set up; for the belief is not to depend upon the thing called a miracle, but upon the credit of the reporter who says that he saw it; and, therefore, the thing, were it true, would have no better chance of being believed than if it were a lie.

From The Age of Reason (Part I).

Paine further points out that, in any event, a miracle is not proof of divinity. After all, it was believed that the devil and his imps can accomplish miracles, too. Since the religious belief holds that miracles can spring from sources that are profoundly good and from sources that are profoundly wicked, it is illogical to conclude that a miracle necessarily brings people closer to the profoundly good.

The notion of the implied "lameness or weakness in the doctrine that is preached" is a very powerful, yet understated, point. One would think that people would be drawn to religious doctrine by its merits, but supposed miracles such as faith healing direct attention away from the merits of a doctrine:

Moral principle speaks universally for itself. Miracle could be but a thing of the moment, and seen but by a few; after this it requires a transfer of faith from God to man to believe a miracle upon man's report. Instead, therefore, of admitting the recitals of miracles as evidence of any system of religion being true, they ought to be considered as symptoms of its being fabulous. It is necessary to the full and upright character of truth that it rejects the crutch, and it is consistent with the character of fable to seek the aid that truth rejects.

 

[Hardenbergh]

I don't think anyone could say it more eloquently than that. Thanks.

 

[pgwenthold]

Paine further points out that, in any event, a miracle is not proof of divinity. After all, it was believed that the devil and his imps can accomplish miracles, too. Since the religious belief holds that miracles can spring from sources that are profoundly good and from sources that are profoundly wicked, it is illogical to conclude that a miracle necessarily brings people closer to the profoundly good.

Yep, the ultimate question that is never answered: "How do you know it was God and not a powerful deceiver?"

Never been answered. Oh sure, they have tried, but it usually comes down fallacy. For example, it is something like "Why would a deceiver do something good?" or "It was a good feeling of love" (this also applies to the "relationship with god" claims).

I like to point out that if _I_ were Satan, and I wanted to recruit souls, the first thing I would try to do is to convince everyone I was God and that God was the evil one. Now, if I can figure it out, you would think that a clever fallen angel, as Satan apparently is, could, too. But religious folk usually don't even admit it is a possibility. Why should the politics of soul gathering be clean and orderly? You don't know who your friends are, and, moreover, because this is all going on in the supernatural, you have no way of figuring it out.

 

[Brown]

I like to point out that if _I_ were Satan, and I wanted to recruit souls, the first thing I would try to do is to convince everyone I was God and that God was the evil one. Now, if I can figure it out, you would think that a clever fallen angel, as Satan apparently is, could, too. But religious folk usually don't even admit it is a possibility.

Paine knew this was a sore point with some religious folks:

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.

[An editor's note observed that Paine often meant The Old Testament when he said "the Bible."]

Paine also observed something that is still true today, namely, that some religious thought places the devil's power on par with, if not superior to, the power of the Almighty:

Putting aside everything that might excite laughter by its absurdity, or detestation by its profaneness, and confining ourselves merely to an examination of the parts, it is impossible to conceive a story more derogatory to the Almighty, more inconsistent with his wisdom, more contradictory to his power, than this story is. In order to make for it a foundation to rise upon, the inventors were under the necessity of giving to the being whom they call Satan, a power equally as great, if not greater than they attribute to the Almighty. They have not only given him the power of liberating himself from the pit, after what they call his fall, but they have made that power increase afterward to infinity. Before this fall they represent him only as an angel of limited existence, as they represent the rest. After his fall, he becomes, by their account, omnipresent. He exists everywhere, and at the same time. He occupies the whole immensity of space.

 

[pgwenthold]

Paine also observed something that is still true today, namely, that some religious thought places the devil's power on par with, if not superior to, the power of the Almighty:

Of course, in addition to giving the devil all this power, there is also the problem of limiting the power god, which is so common these days.

 

[Iacchus]

Paine knew this was a sore point with some religious folksaine also observed something that is still true today, namely, that some religious thought places the devil's power on par with, if not superior to, the power of the Almighty:

That's only because the effect is the same (in terms of man's inclinations) but in the opposite sense.

 

[Hardenbergh]

There are a lot of "Name it, Claim it" preachers out there. I have received mail from a lot of ministries and they've always got some kind of gimmick to procure money, "to plant a seed" and they always send things through the mail like prayer cloths and annointing oil to use as a point of contact. It's true that we receive blessings from God but it's still in God's own time.

 

[Hardenbergh]

William Marion Branham

I had never heard of William Marion Branham until recently because I'm acquainted with two people who belonged to a church whose pastor followed his teachings. William Branham died many, many years ago but his publications are still available. I won't go into detail because there's a lot of information about him on the internet. There are many websites about cults and how to recognize them. The pastor of this particular church died ten years ago and yet when you drive by the church (now closed) the minister's car is still in the church yard after all this time because of the sentiments of these two church members who live in a little camp on the church property. That's one of the signs of a cult when church members worship the church leader almost as much as God. Another sign is when church members are willing to follow the minister if he should happen to move to another state. This involves moving family and changing employment.