Facts that even skeptics don't like to admit

Stereolab

Massager of French
Stereolab
Joined
Jul 9, 2002
Messages
3,372
1. No one can ever really change his or her sex.
2. More men than women are raped every day in America.
3. Life begins at conception.
4. An abortion is not simply "a bunch of cells"--it is a developing child.


see ya
 
Stereolab said:
1. No one can ever really change his or her sex.
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This is a readily disputed fact?

2. More men than women are raped every day in America.
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Evidence?

3. Life begins at conception.
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Define "life"

4. An abortion is not simply "a bunch of cells"--it is a developing child.
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No, an abortion is much more complex than that. Tell me, adopted any children lately?

Where are these "facts" of which you speak? Seems you confuse opinions with facts.

see ya
 
Stereolab said:
1. No one can ever really change his or her sex.
2. More men than women are raped every day in America.
3. Life begins at conception.
4. An abortion is not simply "a bunch of cells"--it is a developing child.


see ya
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1: Sorry, but facts disagree with you. In fact, the sex of a person has never truly been a 100% issue, as the numerous cases of "hermaphrodites" are sure to give telltale signs about. One can't get rid of one's y-chromosomes (if one has them), but it is possible to override their commands with hormonal treatment.

2: First time I've ever seen this claim. Until you provide evidence, I'll keep disagreeing with this, and suspect that it's nothing more than a lie fabricated by some radically antui-gay organisation.

3 and 4: Ahh, it seems like we're finally getting to your real agenda with this post. Life, technically, actually begins before conception, as those sperm cells and egg cells are to my knowledge alive. However, a single sperm cell can't be called a human being. And so far, there has been no evidence to suggest that humans have any form of immortal "soul", and even if they turned out to have one, it is not an automatic given that this "soul" in "inserted" at the moment of conception.

But since there are so far evidence of an immortal soul (or any kind of soul capable of functioning of its own without a body), most reasonable people will maintain that just an egg cell and sperm cell alone won't make a human being. Instead, many months of growth, until the fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb, now that is what we can all agree on is a human being. The cluster of cells, while complex and wondrous in their own right, isn't even close to having achieved this within 12 weeks, which to my knowledge is the "average" amount of time allowed for a woman to abort the fetus on her own decision.
 
An abortion is not simply "a bunch of cells"--it is a developing child.
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A developing child is a "fetus".

"Abortion" has more than one definition- "developing child" is not one of them.

Here's a real fact- you don't know the difference between "fact" and "opinion".
 
I mean I'm kind of being a troll but not really. I wanted to stir up some conversation and controversy, but I believe that each item I posted is a fact.

I posted in the Science forum (and I put this thread in the wrong forum, sorry, I don't think I can change it) that people can't change sexes, a few months back, and the majority of respondents disagreed with me. You can have operations and take hormones and whatnot, but chromosomes are chromosomes. No one who was born a man should ever be allowed into a womens' bathroom.

I will find a source for the rape fact. Rapes happen all the time in prisons, people know this but think it's okay because they're "just prisoners." I am by no means minimizing the problem of rape against women, but it's not okay in prison either.

And the last two...honestly, I have no agenda. I am pro-life; however, you could certainly put together a persuasive argument that abortion is okay. But if you start claiming that a "fetus" isn't alive or isn't a developing child, you've lost all credibility.
 
Stereolab said:
I mean I'm kind of being a troll but not really. I wanted to stir up some conversation and controversy, but I believe that each item I posted is a fact.
Admission. Is there hope for a troll who admits he's a troll? Some sort of 12 step program?

I posted in the Science forum (and I put this thread in the wrong forum, sorry, I don't think I can change it) that people can't change sexes, a few months back, and the majority of respondents disagreed with me. You can have operations and take hormones and whatnot, but chromosomes are chromosomes. No one who was born a man should ever be allowed into a womens' bathroom.
This is a social thing. I was involved in theatre at one point in my existence, and I can tell you that the men's dressing room doors were usually open. Some women did dress in there. No one cared. You almost had to have a password and countersign for the ladies' dressing room. If one considers oneself a woman, then what harm? It's not as though he/she's going to rape anyone, and there's little chance that some evil temptation will be there.(Oh LORD JAYSUS, SAVE US FROM TEMPTATION!:rolleyes: )
It's a mindset, and a social prejudice. It's saying that we men are slobbering pigs who can't control ourselves in a civilized fashion. While most of us want a little privacy for these things, they have stalls and walls, for the love of Freya! *sigh* Get over it, it isn't a big deal.

I will find a source for the rape fact. Rapes happen all the time in prisons, people know this but think it's okay because they're "just prisoners." I am by no means minimizing the problem of rape against women, but it's not okay in prison either.
We will await the evidence.

And the last two...honestly, I have no agenda. I am pro-life;
Anyone else see the contradiction here? A PRO-LIFER with no agenda? Isn't that like saying you have non-wet water?

however, you could certainly put together a persuasive argument that abortion is okay. But if you start claiming that a "fetus" isn't alive or isn't a developing child, you've lost all credibility.
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Rhetoric. You'll have to be more convincing than that.
 
Stereolab said:
I mean I'm kind of being a troll but not really. I wanted to stir up some conversation and controversy, but I believe that each item I posted is a fact.
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Why did you put all four in one thread? It is hard to have a conversation when people are talking about four different things at once?
 
You have quite an amusing definition of "fact." It's a pity you've witheld it from us.
 
Stereolab said:

I posted in the Science forum (and I put this thread in the wrong forum, sorry, I don't think I can change it) that people can't change sexes, a few months back, and the majority of respondents disagreed with me. You can have operations and take hormones and whatnot, but chromosomes are chromosomes. No one who was born a man should ever be allowed into a womens' bathroom.
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What about the intersexed?
 
Stereolab said:
I No one who was born a man should ever be allowed into a womens' bathroom.
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This may be derailing the thread, but... I'll play. Why? I'm just so damn curious about your opinion here. If a 'man' who believes he is really a woman, (man trapped in a woman's body) and goes through the whole sex change thing, ...he's, I mean, she's a woman. Are you a woman? I wonder how many women would be bothred by a man now woman in the ladies room, and how many men are bothered by the idea of it. Being a woman, I wouldn't care, that is, assuming I'd bother to be looking closely enough to find out.

I will find a source for the rape fact. Rapes happen all the time in prisons, people know this but think it's okay because they're "just prisoners."
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You may think some people think it's okay -- I don't. So?

I am by no means minimizing the problem of rape against women, but it's not okay in prison either.

And the last two...honestly, I have no agenda.
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LOL, of course you do, or you wouldn't have posted here. That's okay you have an agenda; everyone has an agenda. Just don't pretend you don't.

I am pro-life; however, you could certainly put together a persuasive argument that abortion is okay. But if you start claiming that a "fetus" isn't alive or isn't a developing child, you've lost all credibility.
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There's a big difference between the concept of a fetus being alive, and a fetus being a developing child. Ask me, all things are alive, but that's me.

I think that whole idea belongs in the religion and philosophy thread.
 
Questions for you, stereolab:

1) If there are, say, 1 million prisoners in the US prison system at any one time (a guesstimate on my part), and half rape the other half regularly, that's 500,000 males rapes in the prison system. But consider: The population of the USA is 250 million, of which half, 125,000,000, are women. Again guestimating, let's suppose just 1% of all these females are raped (or are forced to have sex against their will), then that's 1,250,000 female rapes in the community. This is all assuming different assailants every time too. Please explain.

2) What do you think a miscarriage of pregnancy is? Do you think they should be banned? Who do you think causes them at all?

3) What do sex do you think a person is who has XXY chromosomes instead of the normal XX or XY? Who is to blame for that?
 
Stereolab said:
I posted in the Science forum (and I put this thread in the wrong forum, sorry, I don't think I can change it) that people can't change sexes, a few months back, and the majority of respondents disagreed with me. You can have operations and take hormones and whatnot, but chromosomes are chromosomes. No one who was born a man should ever be allowed into a womens' bathroom.
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In testicular feminization, the fetus is XY but its cells are incapable of responding to testosterone. As a result, the body develops like that of a female (including the external genitalia) because the unused testosterone is converted to estrogen. The only difference is that the fetus has testes that remain in the abdomen and often go undetected, and that the uterus, fallopian tubes and ovaries are missing.

Complete testicular feminization is usually first diagnosed when a female child who fails to menstruate at puberty turns out to be lacking a uterus on examination

The person is XY. But the person has no penis or scrotum - just a vulva, vagina and breasts and every other external physical feature of a female.

Any suggestions as to which bathroom one should send such a person to? If, as you say, chromosomal makeup is the deciding criterion, such people who have developed as females (without any surgeries or hormone treatments) but who are XY should ALSO be sent to men's bathrooms, right?
 
Vikram said:
In testicular feminization, the fetus is XY but its cells are incapable of responding to testosterone. As a result, the body develops like that of a female (including the external genitalia) because the unused testosterone is converted to estrogen. The only difference is that the fetus has testes that remain in the abdomen and often go undetected, and that the uterus, fallopian tubes and ovaries are missing.

Complete testicular feminization is usually first diagnosed when a female child who fails to menstruate at puberty turns out to be lacking a uterus on examination

The person is XY. But the person has no penis or scrotum - just a vulva, vagina and breasts and every other external physical feature of a female.

Any suggestions as to which bathroom one should send such a person to? If, as you say, chromosomal makeup is the deciding criterion, such people who have developed as females (without any surgeries or hormone treatments) but who are XY should ALSO be sent to men's bathrooms, right?
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Forgive me, and by no means assume I'm with Stereolab.....Read my above post. But I've never heard if this and it seems ...well.....rather extraordinary. Is there data on this condition? Just curious.
 
clarsct said:
Forgive me, and by no means assume I'm with Stereolab.....Read my above post. But I've never heard if this and it seems ...well.....rather extraordinary. Is there data on this condition?
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Absolutely.

Although a gynecology textbook would be the ideal source of information, here are some links to get you started:

http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001180.htm
http://adam.about.com/encyclopedia/001180.htm
http://www.umm.edu/ency/article/001180.htm

The scenario I described above is that of Complete Testicular Feminization. People with Incomplete Testicular Feminization can have ambiguous genitalia - combinations of male and female genitalia. That makes classification even more difficult.
 
Zep said:

1) If there are, say, 1 million prisoners in the US prison system at any one time (a guesstimate on my part), and half rape the other half regularly, that's 500,000 males rapes in the prison system.
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If your definition for "regularly" is "once". If "regularly" meant, for example, once in a week, it would be 26 million rapes a year.

But of course, this number is meaningless. According to a study that I googled, 21% of the prisoners in seven Midwestern prisons had been raped during their prison term and 1% during the preceeding year and a half.

I suspect that some people are taking figures like "21% during prison stay" and then read it as "21% each year" which would mean that there were about 400,000 prison rapes each year, a figure that is significantly greater than the US Department of Justice estimate on yearly numer of rapes (248,000 in 1997, figure quoted from a compilation page).
 
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