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Expelled - Why does Ben Stein hate America?

jj

Penultimate Amazing
Joined
Oct 11, 2001
Messages
21,382
Consider the following facts:

The US was developed by deist and non-deist alike, in the spirit of the Enlightenment Movement. This movement was part of the movement to the scientific method via Hume, Popper, and company. It was a secular movement, a movement that subscribed to the idea that the world was an understandable place and that mankind could work toward understanding how the world works.

The constitution of the USA prohibits the government recognizing religion.

The courts and administrations have extended this recognition of religion to all government functions at all levels.

"Expelled" is false, obviously dishonest, intentionally misleading Creationist propaganda, propaganda that seeks, intentionally and deliberately, to replace the process of science with mythological religious belief. In doing so, it is clearly a part of the "wedge" strategy put forth by other traitors to the Constitution who seek to destroy the United States of America, and turn it into a second-rate, poorly-run version of a religious backwater where medical treatment is secondary to religious belief, science and engineering are secondary to the tithe that people pay to their religion, and where innovation and invention are regarded as evil, to be denied and halted.

By doing so, this rejects the process and understanding that founded this country, made it great, and created each and every one of its marvels and acheivements. This country was not founded on religion, it was founded as a secular society with freedom of religion. This country was founded on the idea that mankind can understand, that mankind is not helpless, and that mankind can seek knowlege and understanding, rather than on belief systems that place all of mankind at the helpless whim, beck, and call of some alleged almighty force that has not once, ever, manifested anywhere in the world as a testable, verifiable force.

In short, Ben Stein acts as though he hates America and is trying to destroy it.

He has the right to speak. His actions need to be exposed for what they are.

Not only would the people who push "creation" in any form destroy the country, they make us helpless and defenseless against those who do not abandon the ideas of science and education.
 
Please see Expelled Exposed. I'm a long time fan of Stein's but I'm deeply disappointed with this movie. If Stein had wanted to be intellectually honest he could have left out the BS about Nazis and it could have included Ken Miller and it could have left out all of the lies. But then maybe there wouldn't have been much to put in the movie...

JJ is right, much of what is right with America can be traced directly to our secularism and freedom of religion which led to an explosion of churches and religious free thought.

"I have opponents in this race who do not want to change the Constitution. But I believe it’s a lot easier to change the Constitution than it would be to change the word of the living God. And thats what we need to do is amend the Constitution so it’s in God’s standards rather than trying to change God’s standards so it lines up with some contemporary view of how we treat each other and how we treat the family." --Mike Huckabee.

Folks like Huckabee don't have a clue about what a great thing religious folks have here and they want to gild the lily when it fact it would irreparably harm it.
 
thum_1421447fb7101adfe3.jpg


Artwork is from a JREF poster but I forget who.
 
I like Ben Stein as an actor, but this does seem disappointing. I see some of the conservative blogs are spinning it as less pro-ID than pro-freedom of speech/religion, but that seems like a thin rationalization.
 
It might be a rationalization, but my thought is that the movie is designed less to emphasize ID and/or creationism and more to weakening the hold that secular science has on its place in the educational system; that is, the extent to which it claims to be unassailable by religion. It is designed to allow religion to interfere in the science process (the DI-classic wedge) through extra-scientific means, namely legal.

Science has a remarkable tendency, when correctly applied, to turn young minds away from the religious "straight and narrow" and start them asking religiously inappropriate questions. Unlike almost every other study besides, perhaps, mathematics, science keeps religion out of it's purview on purpose, a stance that fundamentalists cannot abide. Religion, if it were to die out in practice for even a short period, would almost certainly not be the same thing that it was before, unlike science or math would be, grounded in reality as they are. Religion sees that as the ultimate danger, that it is only ever a lifetime away from dying a non-resuscitatable death, just like the many indigenous languages that are lost when the last practitioner dies.

And excellent study on this subject is at the center of the seventh and last episode of the documentary "Evolution", done by NOVA. It turns from examining evolution itself to the creationism vs evolution controversy, studying how it is coped with by the faculty and students at Wheaton College, a fundamentalist christian university. You can view it at http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...40&q=Nova+Evolution&ei=R2AMSKfzHoeQ4wLxir23BA
 
I like Ben Stein as an actor, but this does seem disappointing. I see some of the conservative blogs are spinning it as less pro-ID than pro-freedom of speech/religion, but that seems like a thin rationalization.


How many of theise same "conservative blogs" are all a ga-ga over David Horowitz and his attempt to steamroll the evil commies out of academia?
 
Consider the following facts:

The US was developed by deist and non-deist alike, in the spirit of the Enlightenment Movement. This movement was part of the movement to the scientific method via Hume, Popper, and company. It was a secular movement, a movement that subscribed to the idea that the world was an understandable place and that mankind could work toward understanding how the world works.

The constitution of the USA prohibits the government recognizing religion.
Nit pick here: recognizing is incorrect. Establishing is the exact language. In the First Amendment the prohibition against the government establishing a religion is balanced by the clear recognition of religion and the free exercise thereof as a right.

Ben Stein "hates America" in the sense that he apparently hates where he thinks America is going. Bully for him.

His opinion and a buck might get you a cup of coffee at McD's when you order a Cholesterol McMuffin. :)

DR
 
I've come to change my mind about extreme right-wing ideologues like Ben Stein. They don't really hate America. The problem is, they have the mistaken idea that their foolish ideas would make America a utopia, if only people would stop resisting those ideas. They are incapable of changing their minds, so instead they blame everyone who disagrees with them for not getting on board.

In the case of creationism, the right-wing has repackaged it several times, while never changing the incorrect assumptions at its base. Instead of accepting the failure of their ideas by any name, they now assert that their ideas are valid, and there's a conspiracy to keep people from giving their ideas a fair chance.

You'll note that the focus is not really on science, but on social ills that they blame of the rejection of creationism. The Discovery Institute doesn't have a Center for Science, they have a Center for Science AND CULTURE. If I understand correctly, they also promote failed economic policy as well, as part of their "everything would be perfect if everyone agreed with us" beliefs. Right alongside that, of course, is the "we fail because people disagree with us, not because of any flaw in our thinking" excuse.
 
Nit pick here: recognizing is incorrect. Establishing is the exact language.

Actually, it involves "respecting the establishment of religion"

That doesn't mean it has to actually "establish" anything. One could argue that it could be somewhat vague in whether it means

"respecting the establishment" of religion

or

respecting the "establishment of religion"

But it definately is not limited to establishing
 
If I understand correctly, [the Discovery Institute] also promote failed economic policy as well, as part of their "everything would be perfect if everyone agreed with us" beliefs.

My favorite description of them: "the institutional love-child of Jerry Falwell and Ayn Rand." George Gilder is one of their "fellows," or whatever.

Anyway, the thing about Ben Stein is that he kind of gets it. He's not completely repulsive. I think of him like Tucker Carlson. A couple months ago he had a pretty good article in the NYT criticizing McCain's stupid idea to keep the Bush tax cuts permanent. I'm surprised he's involved in this project.

As for America, it's been Jesusland for a long time. The Establishment Clause was originally intended as a restriction on the central government. Some states had established official churches through the first thirty or so years of the republic, and many more, as independent colonies, had had an entanglement that the membership here would find totally unacceptable. If you want to rely on Orginalist arguments, then you venture into Clarence Thomas territory.

I have not seen the documentary, I'll watch it, like almost everything else, when I get it through Netflix. But I suspect this fits into the overall argument of "teaching the [manufactured] controversy." IDers saying they want to promote academic freedom and free exchange of ideas; let the students decide, blah blah blah. Not surprisingly, this argument has broad support among the public, Democrat and Republican.
 
I think the point of Expelled is to lend itself legitimacy through the backlash it creates.

1. Make a movie about how ID claims get you blackballed
2. Get blackballed for making the movie
3. Say "See I told you so!"

If everyone just ignored this crappy movie that isn't playing hardly anywhere, it would be for the best.
 
I've come to change my mind about extreme right-wing ideologues like Ben Stein. They don't really hate America. The problem is, they have the mistaken idea that their foolish ideas would make America a utopia, if only people would stop resisting those ideas. They are incapable of changing their minds, so instead they blame everyone who disagrees with them for not getting on board.

The exact same can be said about the extreme left.

Or anybody, really. Everyone believes their own ideas are best.
 
The exact same can be said about the extreme left.

Or anybody, really. Everyone believes their own ideas are best.

An old on-line friend says, his wife tells him,

"You always think you're right!"

He says,

"Well, yeah!"
 
For some mysterious reason, pro-ID science teachers never seem to apply ID to their lab exercises, even when they are granted discretionary time in the labs.

If the ID proponents want the academic freedom to teach ID in a science class, maybe they should think about how to apply it in those areas where science actually gets done, before complaining that no one ever lets them do it.

Also, I think we should start a whole sub-Forum called "Expelled". I am likely to start my own thread about this movie, after I somehow manage to get the opportunity to see it (legally but without paying).
 
As I'm far too immature to give
a calculated critique, I just made
a comic.

behind-the-scenes-at-expelled.png
 

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