• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Existence of God is odds on at 2-1

iain

Graduate Poster
Joined
Jan 5, 2002
Messages
1,292
According to this article in The Times a physicist (who is also religious) has used Bayes Theorem to calculate that there is a 66% chance that God exists, given all the data we have.

Well, I guess it's a bit better that 50%, but still not too persuasive :) Worth a flutter at the bookies, maybe.
 
A 2/3rd's chance huh? Did you know that 66.6 is 2/3rds of 100? And, that 666 is 2/3rds of 1,000? Of course if we're dealing with the probability that God exists, then maybe we are speaking about Mr. 666. ;) So what, if God were merely a probability? Hey, no offense ...
 
Iacchus said:
A 2/3rd's chance huh? Did you know that 66.6 is 2/3rds of 100? And, that 666 is 2/3rds of 1,000?

Only if you don't know how to round off properly. Try 66.7 and 667. Who exactly is Mr. 667?


Edited to add...

I remember, never mind. Mr. 667 is the guy who lives across the road from the beast.

[Iron Maiden] 6...6...8.. The neighbor of the beast! [/Maiden]
 
And odds are that he fudged the data fooling himself?


99.999999999999




I can't read the link. Does he show what evidence he used?
 
Suddenly said:

Only if you don't know how to round off properly. Try 66.7 and 667. Who exactly is Mr. 667?
However, 66.7 is not 2/3rds of 100. Neither is 667 2/3rds of 1,000.


Edited to add...

I remember, never mind. Mr. 667 is the guy who lives across the road from the beast.

[Iron Maiden] 6...6...8.. The neighbor of the beast! [/Maiden]
Could be ... ;)
 
Iacchus said:
However, 66.7 is not 2/3rds of 100. Neither is 667 2/3rds of 1,000.
It's called "rounding." For someone that likes to fool with numbers I'd think you were familiar with the concept.

2/3 of 1000 is:

666.666666666666666666666666...

The "..." means the sixes continue to infinity. Whenever you stop writing sixes and round off, you must use a "7" because:

666.666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666666...

is closer to

667

than

666.

Both are approximations, 667 is the correct approximation as it is closer to the actual value.
 
iain said:
According to this article in The Times a physicist (who is also religious) has used Bayes Theorem to calculate that there is a 66% chance that God exists, given all the data we have.

Well, I guess it's a bit better that 50%, but still not too persuasive :) Worth a flutter at the bookies, maybe.
Your link takes me to the subscription page. I don't want a subscription. I want to find out what variables the physicist was using. Can you post some of the info, since the link is broken?
 
Suddenly said:
...is closer to

667

than

666...

Both are approximations, 667 is the correct approximation as it is closer to the actual value. [/B]

True. But, for the purposes of this thread, 666 is funnier. :D
 
The author's homepage is www.stephenunwin.com. It contains a lot more information about the book.

On the whole, the book seems to have been very favorably reviewed by critics. I get the impression that Unwin's thesis may have been a slightly tongue-in-cheek exercise offering a pretext for explaining some highly difficult mathematical (and perhaps philosophical) concepts to a general readership.
 
Thanks for the link.

Yes, it seems quite humorous.



Which means it'll fly right over the head of most fundies, and they'll state that an award-winning physisist proved that God exists.
 
Silicon said:
Thanks for the link.

Yes, it seems quite humorous.



Which means it'll fly right over the head of most fundies, and they'll state that an award-winning physisist proved that God exists.
After looking further at the site, though, even taking the humor into consideration I don't see anything there to indicate that Unwin himself doesn't consider his probabilistic work on the God question to be mathematically sound. Assuming he thinks that he has demonstrated a defensible 2/3 probability of God's existence (which, incidentally, I suspect would be rather offensive to the average fundamentalist), I should think his calculations are entitled to due consideration and scrutiny. The cited critics find Unwin a witty fellow, but none of them suggests that his thesis is fit to be viewed as a joke.

Perhaps some thoughtful JREFer will treat us to a book review in the future?
 
ceo_esq said:
Perhaps some thoughtful JREFer will treat us to a book review in the future?
Maybe when it comes out in paperback...in the meantime, I predict GIGO.
 
ceo_esq said:
After looking further at the site, though, even taking the humor into consideration I don't see anything there to indicate that Unwin himself doesn't consider his probabilistic work on the God question to be mathematically sound. Assuming he thinks that he has demonstrated a defensible 2/3 probability of God's existence (which, incidentally, I suspect would be rather offensive to the average fundamentalist), I should think his calculations are entitled to due consideration and scrutiny. The cited critics find Unwin a witty fellow, but none of them suggests that his thesis is fit to be viewed as a joke.

Perhaps some thoughtful JREFer will treat us to a book review in the future?

It isn't really his math that I suspect I would disagree with, as much as it would be his assumptions.

If I get my moving done and find a copy of this book I'll do a little review. Making "God exists" a 2:1 favorite seems interesting.

In other news, I'm willing to take action on either side as long as I get to hold the money. ;)
 
Editor's Choice | Hedge bets on God, go directly to heaven

By Frank Wilson

Inquirer Book Editor

https://registration.realcities.com.../mld/inquirer/entertainment/books/7158613.htm


The Probability of God
A Simple Calculation That Proves the Ultimate Truth
By Stephen D. Unwin
Crown Forum. 259 pp. $22.95

Mathematician and philosopher Blaise Pascal (1623-1662) was perhaps the first thinker to apply probability theory to the question of God's existence. Pascal's Wager, as it is called, is neatly summarized by Stephen D. Unwin in The Probability of God: "It boils down to the position that you should lead a God-pleasing life since if God does exist, then the reward is infinite; whereas, if he doesn't exist, well, what did you really lose?"

Pascal, of course, as Unwin points out, died 40 years before the Rev. Thomas Bayes (1702-1761) was born.

So what?

Well, Bayes, a Presbyterian minister who was also a first-rate mathematician, devised a theorem (which bears his name) that would have enabled Pascal to refine his wager considerably. Pascal began with the assumption that the question of whether or not God exists is a 50-50 toss-up.

But, taking that 50 percent as only a prior probability, one can, using Bayes' theorem, update the wager in terms of degrees of belief. "The beauty of casting degrees of belief in this probabilistic framework," Unwin explains, "is that probability theory then dictates strict, mathematical means of deriving quantitative probabilities based on the evidence that is available."

Unwin trained as a theoretical physicist and began his career doing research in the field of quantum gravity. Thanks to quantum theory, he points out, the universe has come to be understood, not as deterministic, but as probabilistic.

In the '80s, Unwin entered the field of risk analysis: "I became a mathematical analyst of the risks associated with operating complex industrial facilities such as nuclear power plants... . "

How does God enter the picture?

"Whether God exists is a perplexing question," Unwin observes, one "that, if not properly dealt with, could easily consume every waking moment." So his book is offered as "a quick, pragmatic, but definitive analysis, intended to allow me, and any reader who agrees with my reasoning, to get on with life... . We can... incorporate the probability of God into everyday decisions with the comfort of knowing we are behaving rationally, as the numbers dictate."

Like Pascal, Unwin begins with a 50-50 truth probability of what he terms Proposition G. He updates that truth probability in light of six evidentiary areas: the recognition of goodness; the existence of moral evil; the existence of natural evil; intra-natural miracles (for instance, a friend recovers from an illness after you have prayed for him to get well); extra-natural miracles (such as bringing someone dead back to life); and religious experiences.

A numerical value is assigned to each of these areas, by means of what Unwin calls a Divine Indicator Scale: 10 indicates the evidence is much more likely to be produced - 10 times more - if God exists; 2 means it's twice more likely if God exists; 1 means the evidence is God-neutral; 1/2 (0.5) means the evidence is moderately more likely if God does not exist; and 1/10 (0.1) means the evidence is much more likely if God does not exist.

Bearing in mind that this sort of probability analysis necessarily depends on a measure of subjectivity, consider the recognition of goodness: If God exists and has created us in his own image, Unwin notes, "an inevitable consequence is that we would recognize the distinction between good and evil," since good is one of God's defining attributes. So, in a God-created world, the probability that good will be recognized is 100 percent.

Now it would be unreasonable to assume that such recognition would be altogether impossible in a godless world, but it would be less likely. Unwin estimates that a fair probability would be 10 percent. Dividing 10 percent into 100 percent gives you 10 as the first Divine Indicator (D). When this is factored into Bayes' theorem, the result is a 91 percent probability that God exists.

What is the final outcome of the calculations? To give that away would be unfair to Unwin and unfair to prospective readers, because Unwin's book is a pleasantly breezy account of some complicated matters well worth learning about. It is useful, for instance, to know that, in contrast to fuzzy linguistic probabilities ("the probability that my client was nowhere near" the scene of the crime), mathematical probabilities have very clearly defined properties. A fair die, for instance, has "about a 16.7 percent probability... of landing three dots up."

Unwin raises one of the more interesting objections to intelligent design theory: Given that we "lack so much understanding of God," the "engineering notion of intelligent design" seems not only naive but also presumptuous.

Unwin's calculations leave plenty of room for the role of faith (which John Henry Newman shrewdly said meant "being capable of bearing doubt"). And it is interesting that the decisive factor in his computations derives from religious experience. Once again, it seems the best argument for the reality of the divine is the Psalmist's: "Oh, taste and see how good the Lord is."
 
Interesting. Thanks, Lamont.


So he starts the computation at 50/50, and then fudges from there, huh?



Fudges like this one:



Lamont said:


Bearing in mind that this sort of probability analysis necessarily depends on a measure of subjectivity, consider the recognition of goodness: If God exists and has created us in his own image, Unwin notes, "an inevitable consequence is that we would recognize the distinction between good and evil," since good is one of God's defining attributes. So, in a God-created world, the probability that good will be recognized is 100 percent.

Who says that "good" is one of God's defining attributes? Where does he have evidence of this?

Isn't it equally likely to assume that we understand the difference between good and evil because we were created by an evil god who wanted us to know His wrath?

Or much more likely that knowing the difference between social and anti-social behavior, we social creatures created a mental construct of the absolute perfection of socially positive action, as a model?



Like I said, he STARTS at 50/50, and then fudges from there.
 
If there was only one believer and it was you, would that make God more or less likely to be true? Would the statistics against you shake your faith?

The use of statistics to prove God seems inherently one sided.
And I agree, even using Baye's theorem, this seems more like an argument for the value of belief, not if God exists or not. Those are two very different things.

Bayes' Theorem provides a way to apply quantitative reasoning to what we normally think of as "the scientific method". When several alternative hypotheses are competing for our belief, we test them by deducing consequences of each one, then conducting experimental tests to observe whether or not those consequences actually occur...

If an hypothesis predicts that something should occur, and that thing does occur, it strengthens our belief in the truthfulness of the hypothesis...

Conversely, an observation that contradicts the prediction would weaken (or destroy) our confidence in the hypothesis...
http://members.aol.com/johnp71/bayes.html
 
My without-reading-the-book opinion is that his Bayesian analysis is highly dependent on the prior(s). I also can't even imagine what he used for the likelihood.

I'll try to find it at a Borders this weekend.
 
So, in a God-created world, the probability that good will be recognized is 100 percent.
...which has almost no bearing on the probability of God existing, given the fact that good is recognised. Not to question an expert, of course, but this passage seems to be trying to turn conditional probability on its head.
 

Back
Top Bottom