Excessive Force by Police Officer ?

Skeptical Greg

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Skeptical Greg
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This just doesn't seem to me, like a proper response by a Police officer for ' talking too loud ', but others may see it differently.

Apparently the police department didn't have much of a problem; he got a " written reprimand "..



Story ..
 
Clearly the police department doesn't condone his behavior. Hence, the reprimand. I never thought getting a reprimand was a good thing.
 
She's a drunken fool, and once she starts punching a cop her ass is grass, but the cop was way out of order.

She puts her hand on his arm and his first reaction is to hit her in the face? Then his training for a take down is a right hook?

Anyone with law enforcement training want to chime in here?
 
I've never seen that many people in an IHOP in my life!

But, yeah, it sure looks like a bunch of drunken idiots and an overzealous (ok, and stupid) cop.

One thing to always remember when you're out drinking with your mates: don't punch the cop. Juts don't. It never ends well.
 
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A2KJ3CeEL...://www.wrcbtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=14526986

Administrative leave... the video does not show the before either. (Just saying)



It would appear the officer is trying to do something with someone who is head down at the start.

But the response to her interference is amazing.

Had he remained calm she would be facing disorderly, interference and assualt of an officer. But not anymore.
 
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Administrative " duty " ..


The " written reprimand " was the punishment determined by Internal Affairs dept...

P.S.
I like this from the link in the OP...

Young interviewed one of the women seen in the video. She said a group of friends went to the IHOP to get coffee and that a man asked them to be quiet. The woman said the man never identified himself as an officer.
Click to expand...

Uhmmm, O.K.

Did she maybe think he was impersonating an officer, what with the uniform, gun & everything ?
 
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madurobob said:
I've never seen that many people in an IHOP in my life!

But, yeah, it sure looks like a bunch of drunken idiots and an overzealous (ok, and stupid) cop.

One thing to always remember when you're out drinking with your mates: don't punch the cop. Juts don't. It never ends well.
Click to expand...

That is much better advice than the advice I found in another JREF thread which said that a police officer out of uniform has no power to arrest people, so if you steal a policeman's hat, he can't do anything to you.
 
Ladewig said:
That is much better advice than the advice I found in another JREF thread which said that a police officer out of uniform has no power to arrest people, so if you steal a policeman's hat, he can't do anything to you.
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That is the God's honest truth!

I once stole a copper's hat, and he didn't even arrest me. Just left me bleeding in the alley, free as a bird!
 
Ladewig said:
That is much better advice than the advice I found in another JREF thread which said that a police officer out of uniform has no power to arrest people, so if you steal a policeman's hat, he can't do anything to you.
Click to expand...

And what is weird about that? Obviously the police uniform is a unique set of armor that , when worn in its entirety gives the wearer the supernatural ability to arrest people. And of course unique sets of armor don't work as well when you take a piece away, havn't you ever played diablo?
 
Dancing David said:
It would appear the officer is trying to do something with someone who is head down at the start.

But the response to her interference is amazing.

Had he remained calm she would be facing disorderly, interference and assualt of an officer. But not anymore.
Click to expand...

I think her interference was amazing. Do not put you hands on a police officer. For all he knows he is about to get ganged up on. Anything less than a complete take down is going to invite others to also interfere. I am against police brutality but I don't think this is a particularly strong case. She started the physical confrontation. He had to make a split second decision to take control of a hostile situation. I'm on the side of the LEO with this one.
 
Evidently forgot everything he learned in "defensive tactics" classes.

I would say he's very lucky to get an "administrative duties" suspension. Universally, police defensive tactics training emphasizes that punching folks in the face is a bad idea.
First, it's generally ineffective. Second, it looks awful, even if such a blow was "justified".
Third, it's as likely to result in injury to the officer as to the other guy. Deep cuts (and easily infected ones) from teeth, sprained, broken fingers... Not a good idea.
 
Bikewer said:
Evidently forgot everything he learned in "defensive tactics" classes.

I would say he's very lucky to get an "administrative duties" suspension. Universally, police defensive tactics training emphasizes that punching folks in the face is a bad idea.
First, it's generally ineffective. Second, it looks awful, even if such a blow was "justified".Third, it's as likely to result in injury to the officer as to the other guy. Deep cuts (and easily infected ones) from teeth, sprained, broken fingers... Not a good idea.
Click to expand...

I think the main reason cops are trained not to hit people in the face is because the damage they cause shows up in the booking photo.

Use a phone book you rookie!!!
 
Skeptical Greg said:
Administrative " duty " ..


The " written reprimand " was the punishment determined by Internal Affairs dept...

P.S.
I like this from the link in the OP...



Uhmmm, O.K.

Did she maybe think he was impersonating an officer, what with the uniform, gun & everything ?
Click to expand...

"So I'm at the IHOP, and this stripper starts telling me to shut up. . ."
 
I honestly don't see anything wrong here. From what I can see, she wasn't just touching the officer, she was actively interfering with whatever he was trying to do with the person beside her. I see her grabbing and pulling at his arm. Her interference may well have caused the officer to lose control of the subject in front of him and, depending on what the specifics are of that situation, cause the officer or others to be injured. If such a perception was had by the officer, he was fully justified in using defensive strikes to free himself from her grasp. Obviously, whatever threat he thought the subject in front of him posed was less than the threat he saw from the woman when she became more violent, but that doesn't negate the threat he may have seen from the original subject when she was interfering.

Bikewer said:
Evidently forgot everything he learned in "defensive tactics" classes.
Click to expand...
Disagree. He was in a position of disadvantage. He had one hand occupied with the subject in front of him and had to try to disengage the woman's grasp from toward the back of his left shoulder. He had to reach over his occupied left arm to do this. All that's required with regard to the use of force is that it's reasonable and necessary. Her interference made some amount of force necessary, and her assault on him while he's attempting to control another subject made defensive tactics reasonable.

As for where he hit her, the application of force in any situation is messy and you have to take what you're given for positioning.

So no, I don't think even a letter of reprimand was appropriate, unless there's something going on that we can't see.
 
A police officer in a hostile (or potentially hostile) crowd has some important tradeoffs to consider.

  • If he backs away from the crowd, he loses his ability to control the situation. This is fine if the situation doesn't need his control. Many don't. But if this is one of those situations that does need some control, backing away isn't an option.
  • If he tolerates "inappropriate touching" by people in the crowd, he gives up control not just of the situation, but of his person. I think we can all agree that a police officer who has lost control of his person in a crowd is a terrible thing.
  • The more involved he becomes with any single member of the crowd, the less control he has over every other member of the crowd, and the less control he has over the situation as a whole.
  • This is especially important if a takedown is necessary. There are all kinds of ways to take someone down. Many of them require getting fully, physically involved with the person you are taking down. Certain grips, locks, etc. are tremendously effective. They also effectively pin the police officer as well as their opponent. Any takedown of this type comes at the cost of giving up control of the situation.

In summary: When confronted by a potentially hostile crowd, without the option of backing away, the best option for retaining control and taking down troublemakers might be a swift blow to the face, relying on surprise and shock to both stop the immediate threat and awe the rest of the people there.

It also leaves him entirely unencumbered and ready to face the next threat with whatever technique seems most appropriate.

I suppose it's possible that such a move might enrage the onlookers, but I suspect that group psychology mostly has people backing down from a sudden, unexpected, overt display of violence.
 
And, after watching it again, he didn't even punch her at first -- he half-assed slapped her, then she went ballistic.
 
Did nobody read the article? The cop wasn't reprimanded for striking the woman, he was reprimanded for working a second job and using his police authority to do it.

In other words, he was reprimanded for using his police authority to enforce IHOP policy while working for IHOP.

However the report did state that Vidal violated the provisions of standard operating procedures concerning extra jobs by attempting to enforce the policies of a private enterprise through the use of his police power.

The scuffle, which was captured on video and posted online, occurred inside the restaurant during the early morning of April 23, police said.

According to the police report, Vidal was working a detail at the IHOP when he asked a woman sitting at a booth, identified in the report as Cynthia Freeman, "not to talk so loud."
Click to expand...

The woman is right, there is no law against talking loudly. The POS cop should lose his job and face criminal charges.
 
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Bilbo said:
I think the main reason cops are trained not to hit people in the face is because the damage they cause shows up in the booking photo.

Use a phone book you rookie!!!
Click to expand...
All they have is Google now, and criminals laugh when you hit them in the face with Google.
 
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