Excersise vs Genetics

[Pauliesonne]

P&T did an episode on this very subject and I agree completely with them, but I also wanted to know what the general opinion is around here.

 

[casebro]

My opinion? Healthy people exercise, folks with latent illnesses do not.

One factor in all studies is called "confounding". That's when other factors, known or unknown, may cause greif. I don't know how they could correct for the confounding by a latent disease.

Be that as it may, the studies I've read say that folks who exercise live one year longer, but spend two years of their lives jogging. Net gain???

ETA, what were P&T's findings?

 

[tsg]

ETA, what were P&T's findings?

It was mostly about the whole weight-loss/body-building industry and the claims they make that simply by taking pill X or using excercise device Y you can have the body you've always dreamed of.

Penn & Teller's claim was that your body shape is largely genetic and, even though there are some things you can do to make it better, most people will never be able to look like the people in the ads (without drastic cosmetic surgery, anyway).

End result: if you want to lose weight, eat a little less and excercise a little more (and keep doing it). If you want to look like a body builder, if it isn't in your genes, it isn't happening.

 

[Roboramma]

On the other hand, if you want to look like a body builder, but you don't want to excercise, whether you've got the genes or not, it's not going to happen.

 

[Vagabond]

Well, I know for a fact if you work out enough you can greatly increase your muscle mass. At 16 I was 90 pounds soaking wet and by 18 from doing 100 pushup every night before bed and working out with weights I had put on nearly 50 pounds of muscle.

You can't lose weight with a pill. Also I could never have washboard abs because my ribs stick out at the bottom enough to hold the skin away from the muscles. This isn't something that can be fixed by working out more. I would say professional bodybuilding requires genetics but anybody can get into decent shape and proper weight with effort on their part.

 

[ysabella]

I think weightlifting really is the best tool. But as they say in the P&T episode, if you have a genetically flat butt, you won't be able to change that much if at all.

 

[Gayle]

uh ... that flat butt statement ... try stiff-legged deadlifts and plie squats. Good form, slow. Finish with some cleans and presses for the rest of you.

Your genetics may be better than you imagined.

 

[blutoski]

This subject is topical because January is the busiest month for the weightloss and fitness industries.

There are three things people try to alter:



:: bodyfat %

A professional nutritionist can compose a plan that will achieve the customer's goals. Some franchises such as WeightWatchers have systems that are scientifically valid, but others don't and border on fraud. Ultimately, any person can obtain a target fat%, but the cruelty of genetics means that it will be easier for some than others.




:: fitness

This is a measure of conditioning, and there are good objective comparisons. (eg: a CO2 test). An example of fitness is the ability to dash up a flight of stairs without getting short of breath, or to run for an hour without breaking a sweat. Fitness progress requires consistent effort, which is difficult, and so the industry sees a high customer turnover. The industry has a bad reputation for buyer remorse.




:: muscular appearance / aesthetics (more a guy thing)

While your mophological *predisposition* is strongly genetic, there is a huge range of shaping that can be brought about by activity, either intentionally or as a side effect of something else. For example, body sculptors select a weight device for specific muscles, whereas dedicated runners see their quads, gleuts, calves and ankles hypertrophy even if they're not consciously pursuing visual changes.




In all cases, the definition of a realistic goal is one that's scientifically achievable for the customer in question. An honest professional will level with a customer and co-devlop an acceptable set of targets.

A swindler will sell unrealistic goals:

• exaggerate a customer's final potential (will a 90-year-old win marathons? no)
• exaggerate the rate of progress (lose 50lbs in one month!)
• dismiss customer's responsibility (lose weight while you sleep)
• or gloss over customer's responsibility (a lot of small print on diet pills is that they work best when you're running 10k/day - well, it's probably not the pills that are doing the work, then).

The bad news is that fitness doesn't seem to play as important a role in longevity as we wish, considering the effort invested. At the same time, low bodyfat% does have good returns, as the difference in life expectancy between a male with 40% body fat versus 5% body fat is about 15-20 years. So, if you invest 2 years in losing the extra, say, 90lbs of obesity, the benefits are probably worth it.


One of the problems with these studies is the definition of 'if you exercise'. There is a huge range of participation, and not surprisingly, eventually you see diminishing returns. My top swimmers swim 4hr/day x 6d/wk. Their life expectancy benefits versus if they swam 1hr/dy is probably not 4x. Maybe 1mo more. OTOH, going from 0hr/wk to 5hr/wk probably extends life expectancy by entire years.

There is also a suggestion that a minimum threshold is required to see benefits. Much research is engaged in trying to find this magic number. It looks like approximately 1hr/day of exercise, of which 1/3 must be cardio or no longevity benefits are seen at all. Consequently, when research is done and participants who do a 5min walk to work every day self-classify as 'active', it may not be surprising to find little benefit in being 'active'.

There is also a "quality years" issue, which is a different metric from, but related to, the life expectancy, and varies from country to country. For example, as my lifeguards get older, I encourage them to start strengthening their lower backs, as the #1 injury in the occupation is a herniated disk. A few hours a week of resistance workout could prevent years of physical pain and unemployment. Likewise with fitness as stroke prevention &c.

(I have a BCPRA personal trainer certification, NCCP swim and competitive lifeguard coach certification)

 

[Wheezebucket]

I've been eating nothing but fast food for the past year (for the most part), and I'm paying for it big time. As I correct my diet and start getting more active, I'm finding that I hate movement. Oh well, I gots ta live, so move I shall.

 

[blutoski]

I think the key to getting more mobile is finding more than one activity, and making sure you find them interesting. One of the things that happens is that people pick a sport, buy the equipment, and then discover they don't like it so much after all. Now, they're screwed, because they don't have the scratch to switch to something else.

So, I think when exploring activities it's a good idea to do some drop-ins. I have a client right now who spent the last month trying out sport(indoor) climbing, swimming, water polo, competitive lifeguarding, running, hiking, trail running, and elliptical trainer for cardio. All these options either offer rentals or lenders in the facilities or require nothing more than sneakers or a bathing suit. Ultimately, to make it more economical, she will have to select one or two and get a membership, but not until she knows it's a good fit. Even within a sport, there are ways to spice it up: I find running to be much more pleasureable now that I have a Shuffle, and swimming became much more fun when I joined an open-water team and went from staring at a black line on the bottom of a pool to having a view of the park, out in the sunlight.

My other advice is about realistic goals. I have never endorsed a weight loss plan faster than 5lbs/mo, although I have had clients lose weight faster. If you miss a goal, do not be tempted to make up for it by accelerating to the next target.

 

[ysabella]

uh ... that flat butt statement ... try stiff-legged deadlifts and plie squats. Good form, slow. Finish with some cleans and presses for the rest of you.

Your genetics may be better than you imagined.

I'll try 'em after I have the baby...have to be pretty careful with weights this far along (you don't want to increase the pressure inside your abdomen). Although I don't really have a flat one anyway - my problem is bodyfat, and of course now I have a little more.

But your muscle shape and attachment is very hard to influence, so there are some people who will have flattish butts no matter what.

That quote, in the show, was talking about "Buns of Steel" exercise videos that are basically cardio - but you know that Tamilee chick herself must do weightlifting (lots of squats indeed), as well as having the genes for a shapely butt. She really has a nice one, and it's used to sell the product - misleadingly.

I'm glad to see trainers and people popping in here with this stuff, though. Being a chick, I've had trainers tell me that I shouldn't do free weights. The purple machines, fine! But free weights, oh, no - a few arm moves if you insist. My general response is "You're fired." I found a much better attitude at the YMCA - higher monthly fee, but the trainers are cheap, and my trainer now is a no-nonsense older woman who is a breast cancer survivor. How cool is she?

 

[El Greco]

For both aerobic conditioning and strength/hypertrophy training it's the intensity that matters. It is said that you can increase frequency and decrease duration or vice-versa (within certain limits of course), but you can't sacrifice intensity. Or, to put it in another way, the SAID principle: Specific Adaptations to Imposed Demands. Meaning that you'll get better mainly at what you've been training for, and below a certain intensity there will be no adaptations. More specifically, about aerobic conditioning and on top of the intensity requirement, it is generally believed that the average active male must expend more than 3500 kcal per week in order to improve further. As for strength/hypertrophy, even the most "relaxed" systems endorse certain periods of maximal load (basically different types of periodization), while HIT proponents (be it Mentzer, Sisco, Superslow or anything else) take the intensity concept to the extremes.

Anyway, the bottom line is that only a small percentage of people exercise. Only a small percentage of those exercising use adequate intensity. And only a small percentage of those exercising with adequate intensity also follow a nutrition plan appropriate for their goals. Of those who exercise and diet correctly and don't have severe inherent problems, I'd say that more than 90% attain a body very close to what they want. It's true that they will never have the body of Ronnie Coleman, but it also extremely improbable that they will ever want to have Ronnie's body.

To put it even more simply, I believe that most people would be pretty happy with their body if they just achieved bodyfat levels below 10% for men and below 16-17% for women. And this is something that almost everybody can achieve if they would just put the f****** fork down. It's true that it is much easier for some, but it is attainable for almot everyone.

 

[Lisa Simpson]

uh ... that flat butt statement ... try stiff-legged deadlifts and plie squats. Good form, slow. Finish with some cleans and presses for the rest of you.

Your genetics may be better than you imagined.

I have to disagree. I have lifted weights, done Pilates, done plie squats...and I still have a flat butt. A quarter could bounce off of my muscular butt. However, it is a flat (painfully so) muscular butt.

 

[El Greco]

I have to disagree. I have lifted weights, done Pilates, done plie squats...and I still have a flat butt. A quarter could bounce off of my muscular butt. However, it is a flat (painfully so) muscular butt.

Have you been doing heavy, deep squats (15 reps, you can absolutely not do a 16th) or equally heavy and deep leg presses, 2 times a week, for a few years (alternating exercises each month or so) ? Have you been alternating "mass gaining" and "cutting" cycles (300-500 kcal above or below maintenance respectively) while taking adequate protein every day ? One nutritional mistake is enough to ruin your efforts, eg by not taking adequate protein and calories, how is the body going to build the gluteus ? Out of thin air ?

 

[Loon]

Only a small percentage of those exercising use adequate intensity.

How do you figure out what the appropriate intensity is?

 

[Lisa Simpson]

So...deep heavy squats are going to overcome the genetics of a long line of flat-arsed women? Every woman in my dad's side of the family has had a flat arse. These were women who worked farms. They got more than enough exercise. And they still had flat butts.

 

[El Greco]

So...deep heavy squats are going to overcome the genetics of a long line of flat-arsed women? Every woman in my dad's side of the family has had a flat arse. These were women who worked farms. They got more than enough exercise. And they still had flat butts.

Working farms is extremely tiresome, yet it will do nothing for your butt. You can run 3 marathons a day and have excellent nutrition, yet your butt will remain the same. This is because with the marathons you'll be training muscular endurance, which not only has nothing to do with muscular hypertrophy but may also be incompatible with it.

Muscles grow larger when they face the demand of a greater load. Greater load means heavier weight, not more repetitions or more time in the gym. This is why long distance runners don't have the leg muscles of weight lifters or even sprinters. You can do 1000 squats with your bodyweight, yet this will only improve your ability to do many squats. But since apparently what you care for is hypertrophy, you have to focus on lifting heavier and heavier weights for a few reps (15 is a pretty safe number as far as squats are concerned).

If you couple that with a sound nutrition, then yes, I firmly believe that you can overcome your genetics. In fact, most successful recreational athletes do just that: They overcome their genetics. I can assure you that my parents looked nothing like I do

 

[El Greco]

How do you figure out what the appropriate intensity is?

This is the subject of many debates, but here is what applies in general: For aerobic conditioning you have to train near your "lactose threshold", roughly meaning at an intensity where you would not have the breath to carry a conversation while training. For strength, you have to do low reps, low being about 3-10. When I say 3 or 7 I mean that you can't do a 4th or an 8th no matter how hard you try (whether you must reach absolute failure or not is debatable, but in any case a newbie's failure is not anywhere near as intense as an experienced lifter's failure). When you become stronger and can do more reps, you increase the weight. You should actually alternate periods of fewer reps (higher load) with periods of higher reps (lower load) and periods of complete rest. Periodization and how to avoid overtraining are very complicated subjects, but from what I see the problem of most trainees is not that they train too hard but that they train too lightly. For hypertrophy, do as you would do for strength but also eat a few hundreds of kcals above your maintenance. Get adequate protein, for the average male 100-120gr each day.

There are lots of other details, but the bottom line is this: You can sacrifice neither intensity nor nutrition if you want results.

 

[Chris Haynes]

.... Even within a sport, there are ways to spice it up: I find running to be much more pleasureable now that I have a Shuffle, and swimming became much more fun when I joined an open-water team and went from staring at a black line on the bottom of a pool to having a view of the park, out in the sunlight.

My other advice is about realistic goals. I have never endorsed a weight loss plan faster than 5lbs/mo, although I have had clients lose weight faster. If you miss a goal, do not be tempted to make up for it by accelerating to the next target.

A couple of years ago I could swim 500 yards... in the past 18 months I've been trying to swim between 2 to 3 times a week. I've worked myself up to 2000 yards. It takes me an hour and 15 minutes* to do it, but I figure it is not the speed but the effort that counts (a friend who swims at the same place is a former competetive swimmer, she does 2000 yards in a half hour when she is pressed for time).

Six months after starting to swim regularly and I was up to about 1000 yards I visited my parents' house. There is a hill behind their house that I could climb up easily when they moved in just after I graduated from high school. But after one year of college I was catching my breath to climb it. On the trip last year I had no problem climbing that hill!

I have been losing weight, but very slowly. More like one pound a month. My doctor told me that the slower the weight comes off, the more chance it will stay off.

(note: Last year my #2 son was in a school band competition at Douglas College in New Westminster, and I chaparoned. One of the "keep a bunch of middle school kids busy" activities involved swimming at the nearby Canada Games Pool! That is an awesome facility! Unfortunately we were late getting there because someone accidently thought it was in Vancouver... the address there is a very interesting neighborhood! http://www.nwpr.bc.ca/parks%20web%20page/cgp.html )

* Edit to add... in that time watching the black line on the pool bottom I think of how I will accomplish things during the next day or so, from library trips, menu planning, to other stuff. I also try to keep track of how many laps I am doing. At that pool it takes 40 laps (25 yds long, 50 yards/lap)... I hope to do 50 laps by my 50th birthday in less than two years).

 

[strathmeyer]

I have to disagree. I have lifted weights, done Pilates, done plie squats...and I still have a flat butt. A quarter could bounce off of my muscular butt. However, it is a flat (painfully so) muscular butt.

Right, but how much of them have you done? You can't just do it for a month and stop because you can't see any results. And believe me, plenty of people in the gym have no idea what they are doing and could get as much out of half an hour a week as the hours I see them exercising incorrectly. I don't know what pile squats are, but any squat is going to work your quad more than your but, and Pilates certainly helping you.

The funny thing about the Penn & Teller episode is that the mesomorph/endomorph/ectomorph thing is actually some old ******** where some guy though he could predict people's personality by their body type. Penn & Teller seem to say that there's no way to change your body type, so there's no use in trying, which just seems absurd. They seem to miss that our bodies our height is in our genes, but how fat or muscular we are has to do with our lifestyle. It's not like there's people who don't work out and get on the covers of fitness magazines and are tricking the fatties into joining their health clubs. Sure, they found one example of someone giving bad supplement advice, a sponser stating the opposite of something printed on their product, and that late nite informercials might actually give misleading information about their product. But that makes about half an episode, and they tried to fill in the other half with some rant against athletes. It was really weird when they said something to the affect of "don't be like the jocks in high school", like they were unjustly stereotyping some people in order to make themselves feel better.