Barkhorn1x
Critical Thinker
- Joined
- Jul 19, 2002
- Messages
- 343
Been doing some thinking. Here is the result;
Which Ten Commandments? Or, How Can Judge Roy Moore be So Damn Ignorant?
“You've got your Jewish Ten Commandments, your Catholic Ten Commandments, your Lutheran Ten Commandments, your Charlton Heston Ten Commandments, your King James Bible Ten Commandments, your New Revised Standard Version Ten Commandments, and they don't all agree as to which commandment is which — or what they really mean. Even the Bible contains two versions, one in Exodus 20:1-17 and a slightly different one in Deuteronomy 5:6-21.”
Maybe you think Judge Moore is a righteous man, standing up to those evil atheists and secular humanists that want to remove religion from public life. Or, maybe you think Judge Moore is a grandstanding ass that cares more about his future political career, and the votes that he will no doubt receive from conservative Christians than he does about enforcing federal statutes.
OK. Let’s all take a step back for a moment and set aside the scenes of yelling religious zealots and the posturing of ACLU lawyers that would have us believe that something as innocuous as the phrase “In God We Trust” on our money will lead to the establishment of a theocratic state.
Let’s look at the facts, and then the Ten Commandment’s themselves.
The Facts;
It is important to review the salient facts of the case to better understand how this whole issue came to be. What follows is a brief synopsis of events;
a. In 1992, Judge Moore hung a rosewood Ten Commandments plaque above his bench. The American Civil Liberties Union sued to have it removed, but Judge Moore won that case.
b. In 2000, Moore is elected Chief Justice of Alabama – his campaign slogan is, “Roy Moore: Still the Ten Commandments Judge”. He won easily.
c. In July 2001, the 10 Commandments monument is installed in the Alabama State Courthouse rotunda. That great big marble edifice did not just appear in the courthouse by itself, Moore placed it there, in the middle of the night, when the courthouse was empty. He didn’t get permission from the court or building administrator’s either, making this an act of dubious legality.
d. The other eight associate justices of the Alabama Supreme Court ruled unanimously that Moore must abide by federal rulings that found he had violated the “establishment clause” (separation of church and state). So, the other Alabama judges ruled that Moore and the state of Alabama must uphold the LAW!
e. Moore disagreed and appealed the matter to the US Supreme Court. The United States Supreme Court declined to issue a stay against the removal order and by not doing so, in effect, endorsed the position of the lower court – “Roy’s Rock” must go.
f. Finally, on August 28th, 2003, the monument was removed from public view. Judge Moore now faces disciplinary action for his violation of the very laws he took an oath to uphold.
The Principle;
We have all heard that the founding Fathers were all god fearing Christian men and that this nation rests on a Judeo-Christian foundation. Curiously, these same men created a document - the Constitution - that does not mention god even once! That’s right – not once. Look it up right here;
(http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html).
The Constitution - the supreme law of this land - written by some of the wisest men of their age, does not mention god even once. The Constitution does however mention religion – once – as part of the 1st Amendment, which reads as follows:
“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”
This clause, "the Establishment Clause", is the basis for the principle of the separation of church and state.
Some of the Founding Fathers were the descendants of the Puritans. You know the Puritans. They came to the New World to escape religious persecution at the hands of the Church of England. And when they got here they practiced a brand of intolerance far harsher than what they had ever experienced in Europe. I’m certain that the history of the Massachusetts Bay Colony and of Rhode Island gave the Founding Fathers pause regarding any future coupling of religious observance with state power.
There is endless debate about what the Fathers “intended” and how they wrote about god and religious matters in their private correspondence to each other all the time. All of that is beside the point. The point is what they actually did! And what they did was to see fit to exclude god and religion from the Constitution. And then they added a safeguard to ensure that the state would take NO role in religious matters.
The Ten Commandments:
Setting aside the interesting issue raised in the quote at the beginning of this piece – which set of commandments does one mean when they refer to the Ten Commandments as the foundation of this great nation? Let’s take a look at the King James Bible version of the “BIG” 10 found in Exodus 20:1-17, s this is the list that most people have in mind when discussing the commandments.
We will take each in turn and see how closely they match up to our laws as they exist today.
1. “I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”
- Does not agree with US law. It is in no way illegal in the US to believe in other gods besides the god of the bible. It is not illegal to have no beliefs whatsoever if you so choose. I’ve heard more than one politician or preacher state that the Constitutions guarantee of freedom OF religion is no guarantee of freedom FROM religion. Wrong! I suggest that these people actually read the Constitution sometime soon.
2. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.”
- Does not agree with US law in any aspect as;
* It is not illegal to make images of any god or gods that one may care to create.
* It is not illegal to worship these images.
* US law does not punish the children of offenders, or their children, or their children’s children.
3. “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.”
- Does not agree with US law. It is certainly not polite to do so and it tends to rile the faithful, but it is not illegal to do so.
4. “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”
- Does not agree with US law. If the faithful feel that they must observe this injunction then they are free to do so. But the rest of us can legally go about our business – in most states anyway.
5. “Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.”
- Does not agree with US law. Doubtless a good principle to follow in your private affairs (in most cases) but it is not illegal to “dishonour” your parents as long as you don’t threaten, harass or do them any physical harm
6. “Thou shalt not kill.”
- Does not agree with US law. Yes, that’s right. The commandment doesn’t sate, “…except in the case of government sanctioned executions of convicted felons”. It simply states that you shouldn’t kill, period. And executions are legal in many states, including some of the more religious ones, like Texas or Utah.
7. “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
- Does not agree with US law. Again, a good rule to follow in your private life but not illegal. It was at one time in many states, but was seldom enforced.
8. “Thou shalt not steal.”
- DOES AGREE with US law. We have a winner, the only one so far.
9. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.”
- Does not totally agree with US law. Sure it’s illegal to lie under oath and slander is a crime, but very difficult to prove. However, lying about your neighbor to rest of the block is hardly an indictable offense.
10. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.”
- Does not agree with US law. And it goes against the very grain of a capitalist society. The US is a society built on coveting – although probably not so much on coveting your neighbor’s ox.
To sum up, we find that about 1 ½ commandments are actually in concordance with US law today and one other could possibly be added to the list from a historical perspective. This then is foundation of Judge Moore’s argument, a pretty weak foundation indeed.
What the Separation of Church and State REALLY Means to America;
The Separation of Church and State means that there is not now, nor will there ever be a state sponsored religion in the US. One need only point to countries such as Afghanistan under the Taliban, Iran or Saudi Arabia to see what a theocratic state means in practice. Persecution of religious minorities and non-believers, suppression of books, movies and free expression occurs daily in these societies. Imagine how you would feel if it were illegal to have a beer in bar (oh wait, a bad example if you happen to live in Utah or certain parts of Texas).
Contrary to what Judge Moore or Jerry Falwell would have you believe there is no secular humanist conspiracy to remove god from society. Rather there are legitimate objections to state officials using state property to promote their (narrow) religious views. It is not illegal to pray whenever you want to. It is illegal force prayer on others at public schools or in government arenas because not everyone should be forced to take part in a religious ritual at a state sponsored function.
One has to wonder at the viability and validity of any religion that requires state power to sustain itself. Shouldn’t a religion with an appealing message be a able to survive and flourish without the need of a 2 ton monument in a state courthouse to remind us all of the greatness of this message?
Finally, if you believe and want to pray or go to church, please go and do so – this is your right, the Constitution guarantees it. If I choose not to believe or to pray with you or go to your church – that is my right, and the Constitution guarantees that as well!
Comments please.
Barkhorn.
Which Ten Commandments? Or, How Can Judge Roy Moore be So Damn Ignorant?
“You've got your Jewish Ten Commandments, your Catholic Ten Commandments, your Lutheran Ten Commandments, your Charlton Heston Ten Commandments, your King James Bible Ten Commandments, your New Revised Standard Version Ten Commandments, and they don't all agree as to which commandment is which — or what they really mean. Even the Bible contains two versions, one in Exodus 20:1-17 and a slightly different one in Deuteronomy 5:6-21.”
Maybe you think Judge Moore is a righteous man, standing up to those evil atheists and secular humanists that want to remove religion from public life. Or, maybe you think Judge Moore is a grandstanding ass that cares more about his future political career, and the votes that he will no doubt receive from conservative Christians than he does about enforcing federal statutes.
OK. Let’s all take a step back for a moment and set aside the scenes of yelling religious zealots and the posturing of ACLU lawyers that would have us believe that something as innocuous as the phrase “In God We Trust” on our money will lead to the establishment of a theocratic state.
Let’s look at the facts, and then the Ten Commandment’s themselves.
The Facts;
It is important to review the salient facts of the case to better understand how this whole issue came to be. What follows is a brief synopsis of events;
a. In 1992, Judge Moore hung a rosewood Ten Commandments plaque above his bench. The American Civil Liberties Union sued to have it removed, but Judge Moore won that case.
b. In 2000, Moore is elected Chief Justice of Alabama – his campaign slogan is, “Roy Moore: Still the Ten Commandments Judge”. He won easily.
c. In July 2001, the 10 Commandments monument is installed in the Alabama State Courthouse rotunda. That great big marble edifice did not just appear in the courthouse by itself, Moore placed it there, in the middle of the night, when the courthouse was empty. He didn’t get permission from the court or building administrator’s either, making this an act of dubious legality.
d. The other eight associate justices of the Alabama Supreme Court ruled unanimously that Moore must abide by federal rulings that found he had violated the “establishment clause” (separation of church and state). So, the other Alabama judges ruled that Moore and the state of Alabama must uphold the LAW!
e. Moore disagreed and appealed the matter to the US Supreme Court. The United States Supreme Court declined to issue a stay against the removal order and by not doing so, in effect, endorsed the position of the lower court – “Roy’s Rock” must go.
f. Finally, on August 28th, 2003, the monument was removed from public view. Judge Moore now faces disciplinary action for his violation of the very laws he took an oath to uphold.
The Principle;
We have all heard that the founding Fathers were all god fearing Christian men and that this nation rests on a Judeo-Christian foundation. Curiously, these same men created a document - the Constitution - that does not mention god even once! That’s right – not once. Look it up right here;
(http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html).
The Constitution - the supreme law of this land - written by some of the wisest men of their age, does not mention god even once. The Constitution does however mention religion – once – as part of the 1st Amendment, which reads as follows:
“ Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…”
This clause, "the Establishment Clause", is the basis for the principle of the separation of church and state.
Some of the Founding Fathers were the descendants of the Puritans. You know the Puritans. They came to the New World to escape religious persecution at the hands of the Church of England. And when they got here they practiced a brand of intolerance far harsher than what they had ever experienced in Europe. I’m certain that the history of the Massachusetts Bay Colony and of Rhode Island gave the Founding Fathers pause regarding any future coupling of religious observance with state power.
There is endless debate about what the Fathers “intended” and how they wrote about god and religious matters in their private correspondence to each other all the time. All of that is beside the point. The point is what they actually did! And what they did was to see fit to exclude god and religion from the Constitution. And then they added a safeguard to ensure that the state would take NO role in religious matters.
The Ten Commandments:
Setting aside the interesting issue raised in the quote at the beginning of this piece – which set of commandments does one mean when they refer to the Ten Commandments as the foundation of this great nation? Let’s take a look at the King James Bible version of the “BIG” 10 found in Exodus 20:1-17, s this is the list that most people have in mind when discussing the commandments.
We will take each in turn and see how closely they match up to our laws as they exist today.
1. “I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.”
- Does not agree with US law. It is in no way illegal in the US to believe in other gods besides the god of the bible. It is not illegal to have no beliefs whatsoever if you so choose. I’ve heard more than one politician or preacher state that the Constitutions guarantee of freedom OF religion is no guarantee of freedom FROM religion. Wrong! I suggest that these people actually read the Constitution sometime soon.
2. “Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.”
- Does not agree with US law in any aspect as;
* It is not illegal to make images of any god or gods that one may care to create.
* It is not illegal to worship these images.
* US law does not punish the children of offenders, or their children, or their children’s children.
3. “Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.”
- Does not agree with US law. It is certainly not polite to do so and it tends to rile the faithful, but it is not illegal to do so.
4. “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.”
- Does not agree with US law. If the faithful feel that they must observe this injunction then they are free to do so. But the rest of us can legally go about our business – in most states anyway.
5. “Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.”
- Does not agree with US law. Doubtless a good principle to follow in your private affairs (in most cases) but it is not illegal to “dishonour” your parents as long as you don’t threaten, harass or do them any physical harm
6. “Thou shalt not kill.”
- Does not agree with US law. Yes, that’s right. The commandment doesn’t sate, “…except in the case of government sanctioned executions of convicted felons”. It simply states that you shouldn’t kill, period. And executions are legal in many states, including some of the more religious ones, like Texas or Utah.
7. “Thou shalt not commit adultery.”
- Does not agree with US law. Again, a good rule to follow in your private life but not illegal. It was at one time in many states, but was seldom enforced.
8. “Thou shalt not steal.”
- DOES AGREE with US law. We have a winner, the only one so far.
9. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.”
- Does not totally agree with US law. Sure it’s illegal to lie under oath and slander is a crime, but very difficult to prove. However, lying about your neighbor to rest of the block is hardly an indictable offense.
10. “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.”
- Does not agree with US law. And it goes against the very grain of a capitalist society. The US is a society built on coveting – although probably not so much on coveting your neighbor’s ox.
To sum up, we find that about 1 ½ commandments are actually in concordance with US law today and one other could possibly be added to the list from a historical perspective. This then is foundation of Judge Moore’s argument, a pretty weak foundation indeed.
What the Separation of Church and State REALLY Means to America;
The Separation of Church and State means that there is not now, nor will there ever be a state sponsored religion in the US. One need only point to countries such as Afghanistan under the Taliban, Iran or Saudi Arabia to see what a theocratic state means in practice. Persecution of religious minorities and non-believers, suppression of books, movies and free expression occurs daily in these societies. Imagine how you would feel if it were illegal to have a beer in bar (oh wait, a bad example if you happen to live in Utah or certain parts of Texas).
Contrary to what Judge Moore or Jerry Falwell would have you believe there is no secular humanist conspiracy to remove god from society. Rather there are legitimate objections to state officials using state property to promote their (narrow) religious views. It is not illegal to pray whenever you want to. It is illegal force prayer on others at public schools or in government arenas because not everyone should be forced to take part in a religious ritual at a state sponsored function.
One has to wonder at the viability and validity of any religion that requires state power to sustain itself. Shouldn’t a religion with an appealing message be a able to survive and flourish without the need of a 2 ton monument in a state courthouse to remind us all of the greatness of this message?
Finally, if you believe and want to pray or go to church, please go and do so – this is your right, the Constitution guarantees it. If I choose not to believe or to pray with you or go to your church – that is my right, and the Constitution guarantees that as well!
Comments please.
Barkhorn.