Epistemology, atheism and The Holy Ghost.

[1inChrist]

To the atheist the root of knowledge is logic and reason. The atheist starts with I think therefore I am and builds upon it. Using the scientific method or mindset to determine reality from fantasy.

To the Christian the root of knowledge is two things:

#1: The Holy Ghost
#2: The Holy Bible

And the Christian builds upon that.

In this post, I am going to show why the The Holy Ghost and The Holy Bible are better for forming an epistemology than logic and reason.

First, how well can you trust logic and reason? I mean logic and reason differ from person to person. You have scientists that disagree on what makes sense. Also, logic and reason is flawed.

Take this for instance:

P. Jim walks into the cafe and says he wants the house special
P. The house special is a cheeseburger
C. Jim wants the cheeseburger.

But what if Jim is allergic to cheese? Than he ofcourse does not want the cheeseburger like logic and reason would have you believe.

Now, can you trust The Holy Ghost and The Holy Bible? Yes! You see, The Holy Ghost comes before even I think therefore I am. The Holy Ghost proves itself using means beyond our human understanding. You just know it. You can push your computer monitor over 100 times but still cannot know for 100% fact that it will fall over every single time. Sure, the laws of gravity say it will but you can't trust that even 100%. Why? Because there are many reports of people, animals and objects flying through thin air. So we know the law of gravity is not really a law, just a theory that comes from the flawed philosophy of logic and reason.

Now that you have The Holy Ghost guiding you, it's time to open up The Holy Bible to learn of our Creator, God. Now all you have to do is sit back, let the words be scanned by your eyes and The Holy Ghost will do the rest.

In conclusion I think that The Holy Ghost and The Holy Bible form an epistemology better than logic and reason.

Simply because the The Holy Ghost and The Holy Bible proves itself but logic and reason do not.

 

[roger]

Thanks for the laugh!

 

[Anathema]

Hmmmm.....fresh droppings....he must be around here somewhere.

Hopefully, he'll go back and address the growing list of unanswered questions in his previous threads, before attempting to enlighten us anew in a fresh pile....

 

[Capsid]

Wow, what a logical and reasoned argument.

 

[alfaniner]

So, God is a cheeseburger.

 

[roger]

Oh that's just great I'm allergic to God.

 

[agnostic_god]

Now all you have to do is sit back, let the words be scanned by your eyes and The Holy Ghost will do the rest.

Except that if the holy ghost does the rest, then you aren't exercising free will. Oops, there's the old conflict between "God has a plan for your life" and "God grants you free will." I would like to say that it is an obvious conflict, but the obviousness is obviously lost on some.

Wow, it's really going to be a long week if I'm already so bored on a Monday that I've got nothing better to do than respond to this troll bait.

 

[lifegazer]

To the atheist the root of knowledge is logic and reason. The atheist starts with I think therefore I am and builds upon it. Using the scientific method or mindset to determine reality from fantasy.

To the Christian the root of knowledge is two things:

#1: The Holy Ghost
#2: The Holy Bible

Your argument is dreadfully flawed, for how can you relate to these other-concepts without first relating to yourself ("I")?
Secondly, how can you comprehend these other-concepts at all without engaging your ability to reason/understand?

You mock reason yet fail to understand that even a
Sun-worshipping simpleton from the rainforest must use his [limited] powers of reason to comprehend the thing he is worshipping in relation to a comprehension of the self.

In this post, I am going to show why the The Holy Ghost

What is the "holy ghost"? How can you expect people to believe in an entity when they don't even know what it is?

First, how well can you trust logic and reason? I mean logic and reason differ from person to person.

That's true, but it is not a proof that there is no absolute reason.

I admire your faith, but do not understand the basis of it.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Speak of the devil...


I was just asking where you were.

I declare Dragonrock the winner of this debate.

Oh, and, I'll have a house special, to go

 

[Flaherty]

To the atheist the root of knowledge is logic and reason. The atheist starts with I think therefore I am and builds upon it. Using the scientific method or mindset to determine reality from fantasy.

To the Christian the root of knowledge is two things:

#1: The Holy Ghost
#2: The Holy Bible

And the Christian builds upon that.

In this post, I am going to show why the The Holy Ghost and The Holy Bible are better for forming an epistemology than logic and reason.

First, how well can you trust logic and reason? I mean logic and reason differ from person to person. You have scientists that disagree on what makes sense. Also, logic and reason is flawed.

Take this for instance:

P. Jim walks into the cafe and says he wants the house special
P. The house special is a cheeseburger
C. Jim wants the cheeseburger.

But what if Jim is allergic to cheese? Than he ofcourse does not want the cheeseburger like logic and reason would have you believe.

Yes, that is what logic would have me believe provided we also assume

A1. Jim knows what the special is,
A2. Jim knows that he is allergic to the special,
A3. Jim wishes to avoid an allergic reaction.

Since you made none of these assumptions, your conclusion does not follow from your premise.

Now, can you trust The Holy Ghost and The Holy Bible? Yes! You see, The Holy Ghost comes before even I think therefore I am. The Holy Ghost proves itself using means beyond our human understanding. You just know it. You can push your computer monitor over 100 times but still cannot know for 100% fact that it will fall over every single time. Sure, the laws of gravity say it will but you can't trust that even 100%. Why? Because there are many reports of people, animals and objects flying through thin air. So we know the law of gravity is not really a law, just a theory that comes from the flawed philosophy of logic and reason.

Now that you have The Holy Ghost guiding you, it's time to open up The Holy Bible to learn of our Creator, God. Now all you have to do is sit back, let the words be scanned by your eyes and The Holy Ghost will do the rest.

In conclusion I think that The Holy Ghost and The Holy Bible form an epistemology better than logic and reason.

Simply because the The Holy Ghost and The Holy Bible proves itself but logic and reason do not.

Throughout the history of Christianity, people have prayed to Jehovah to end the plague du jour or to relieve them of yet another famine. None of those prayers worked -- until man began using logic, reason, and science to discover the cause of disease and how to increase crop yields. Science and reason work.

Nothing fails like prayer.

 

[1inChrist]

Re: Re: Epistemology, atheism and The Holy Ghost.

Except that if the holy ghost does the rest, then you aren't exercising free will.

WRONG! You CHOOSE to let The Holy Ghost guide you. You know, CHOOSE meaning you are exercising your free will.

Oops, there's the old conflict between "God has a plan for your life" and "God grants you free will." I would like to say that it is an obvious conflict, but the obviousness is obviously lost on some.

There is no conflict unless you are an atheist apologists who wants there to be a conflict with every aspect of Christianity.

Wow, it's really going to be a long week if I'm already so bored on a Monday that I've got nothing better to do than respond to this troll bait. [/B]

You can stop with the troll nonsense at anytime. I am here to debate God and philosophy.

 

[1inChrist]

Re: Re: Epistemology, atheism and The Holy Ghost.

Originally posted by lifegazer Your argument is dreadfully flawed, for how can you relate to these other-concepts without first relating to yourself ("I")?

''I'' and God's will are the same.

Secondly, how can you comprehend these other-concepts at all without engaging your ability to reason/understand?

I do not use logic or reason. I use God. God tells me how to think, I don't tell myself how to think.

You mock reason yet fail to understand that even a
Sun-worshipping simpleton from the rainforest must use his [limited] powers of reason to comprehend the thing he is worshipping in relation to a comprehension of the self.

You are making an assumption. You assume that another human must use logic and reason like you do. You are assuming all human brains work the same. Care to back up this claim?

What is the "holy ghost"? How can you expect people to believe in an entity when they don't even know what it is?

The Holy Ghost is the messenger of God.

That's true, but it is not a proof that there is no absolute reason.

Yes it does. It proves in human understanding there is no absolute logic or reason.

I admire your faith, but do not understand the basis of it.

The basis is The Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost proves God's existence beyond means understood by scientific understanding.

 

[uruk]

Good lord, son! Do you have any idea what your talking about?

The bible is proven to be flawed and contradictory. For god's sake just read it! Don't just rely on what your pastor is telling you.

Take this for instance:

P. Jim walks into the cafe and says he wants the house special
P. The house special is a cheeseburger
C. Jim wants the cheeseburger.

But what if Jim is allergic to cheese? Than he ofcourse does not want the cheeseburger like logic and reason would have you believe.
:

The syllogisim is flawed because the premises are too general or flawed in themselves. Logic is just a tool. If you use it incorrectly you'll get errors. Garbage-in, garbage-out applies.

You can push your computer monitor over 100 times but still cannot know for 100% fact that it will fall over every single time. Sure, the laws of gravity say it will but you can't trust that even 100%

You missunderstand the uncertainty principal. It applies mostly to the subatomic realm. If I push my monitor off my desk 100 times I will know with certainty that it will fall 100 times. I do not even have to be observing or present to know that it will fall. The law of gravity is a certainty. As a matter of fact, ALL the mechanical and electronic devices you use rely on the certainty of the laws of physics. Your computer, car, microwave oven, and even the P.A. system that your church uses are all designed and built with the certainy of knowlege of the physical laws.

Why? Because there are many reports of people, animals and objects flying through thin air.

Please back this up with proof. Show me a scientific report of this phenomena, not just a web link to a religious or parapsycology site.

So we know the law of gravity is not really a law, just a theory that comes from the flawed philosophy of logic and reason.

It is a theory that comes from observation and experimentation, not just a bunch of overpaid, longhaired college professors sitting around sipping tea.

The Holy Ghost proves itself using means beyond our human understanding. You just know it.

I see. That's your proof. "You just know it" Hmmmm... how do you just "know it"? Are you sure just invoking god's name alone will prevent satan from clouding your judgement? If you read the bible you will know that god tests his people (just to see how strong they are in their faith). How can you know if god is not testing you by allowing satan to continue to talk to you after you invoked his name? Remember god can do anything he wants.

Please, use the brain god gave you. He gave it to you for a purpose.

 

[Jellby]

First, how well can you trust logic and reason? I mean logic and reason differ from person to person. You have scientists that disagree on what makes sense. Also, logic and reason is flawed.

[...]

Now, can you trust The Holy Ghost and The Holy Bible? Yes!

Which Holy Bible?

The Catholic one?
The Protestant one?
The Orthodox one?
The Greek "original" (was it?)?
The Latin translation? The Vulgata?
The English translation? Which one?
The French translation?

Which part of the Bible?

I repeat myself: God created atheists to be atheists, or at least they chose to be atheists, why are you trying to change what God created?

 

[1inChrist]

Re: Re: Epistemology, atheism and The Holy Ghost.

Originally posted by Flaherty Yes, that is what logic would have me believe provided we also assume

A1. Jim knows what the special is,
A2. Jim knows that he is allergic to the special,
A3. Jim wishes to avoid an allergic reaction.

Since you made none of these assumptions, your conclusion does not follow from your premise.

What I'm saying is you cannot take on the whole world using blind logic. If you do, you will eat many cheeseburgers in your life.

Throughout the history of Christianity, people have prayed to Jehovah to end the plague du jour or to relieve them of yet another famine. None of those prayers worked

Says who? The plagues stopped, eh?

until man began using logic, reason, and science to discover the cause of disease and how to increase crop yields. Science and reason work.

Lol, science. Right, isn't that the philosophy that says my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great
great great great great grandmother was an ape?

Nothing fails like prayer.

God does not answer all prayers.

 

[agnostic_god]

Re: Re: Re: Epistemology, atheism and The Holy Ghost.

WRONG! You CHOOSE to let The Holy Ghost guide you. You know, CHOOSE meaning you are exercising your free will.



There is no conflict unless you are an atheist apologists who wants there to be a conflict with every aspect of Christianity.



You can stop with the troll nonsense at anytime. I am here to debate God and philosophy.

Well, this is a bit of a conundrum. If God already has a plan for my life, then no matter what I do, my life is going to act itself out the way God wants. But wait! I have free will! I can change my mind about something and my life will go down a different path. I can even pray about my decisions and ask for God’s help. But wait! If God is omniscient and has a plan for my life, then he knew I was going to do that, so I didn’t really exercise free will at all! Or did God change his mind about his plan for my life because I prayed? But that would mean God didn’t have a plan in the first place, which means he can’t be omniscient because he didn’t know what I was going to do. But wait! Maybe that was part of the plan all along! And so on and so on, ad nauseam.

 

[1inChrist]

Re: Re: Epistemology, atheism and The Holy Ghost.

Which Holy Bible?

The Catholic one?
The Protestant one?
The Orthodox one?
The Greek "original" (was it?)?
The Latin translation? The Vulgata?
The English translation? Which one?
The French translation?

Which part of the Bible?

I repeat myself: God created atheists to be atheists, or at least they chose to be atheists, why are you trying to change what God created?

The King James Verison.

 

[TruthSeeker]

1inChrist,

Can you think of a few ways you have used and profitted from the fruits of logic, reason and science just today?

If you can't, I'll list a few but you go first.

 

[geni]

Re: Re: Re: Epistemology, atheism and The Holy Ghost.

Lol, science. Right, isn't that the philosophy that says my great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great great
great great great great grandmother was an ape?

Hate to tell you this but you are an ape.

As a side note you are doind a better job of damaging chritianty than 100 athists working 24/7 for a year could do. kindly stop and say go and read the bible.

 

[1inChrist]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Epistemology, atheism and The Holy Ghost.

Well, this is a bit of a conundrum. If God already has a plan for my life, then no matter what I do, my life is going to act itself out the way God wants.

You do not understand God's plan correctly. God has a plan to create humans and give them free will.

But wait! I have free will! I can change my mind about something and my life will go down a different path.

Yes all humans have this. It's a gift from God.

I can even pray about my decisions and ask for God’s help. But wait! If God is omniscient and has a plan for my life, then he knew I was going to do that

Nope. God's plan is simply ''Let the humans do as they wish.'' Don't forget though, they are ETERNAL consequences.

so I didn’t really exercise free will at all!

Yes you do. If you choose to go down a different path you are using your free will, which is a part of God's plan.

Or did God change his mind about his plan for my life because I prayed?

God never changes His mind.

But that would mean God didn’t have a plan in the first place, which means he can’t be omniscient because he didn’t know what I was going to do. But wait! Maybe that was part of the plan all along! And so on and so on, ad nauseam.

Wow you really need to learn of the Lord and His plan of Salvation for all mankind.