EPFX, The Quantum Alliance Inc.

[mollyblack]

I posted this in somebody else's thread regarding this company, but thoughtI would throw it in here since my sister, the Podiatrist, with a medical degree and everything, has been (in my opinion) roped in to this. Somebody was kind enough to post links for the other person, but in reading the links I wasn't impressed with the anti-evidence I'm going to need to help save her from spending $20,000 USD (plus extras, I'm sure) on a machine that is obviously a fake.

I quote myself here:

"My sister, an actual doctor, is thinking about buying one of these. I'm going out of mind with worry because I can read the b*llsh*t! and it's really obvious that this machine is all quackery. I'm freaking out because she's convinced that a computer that she was hooked up to "literally read" her mind. She said she mentally (not out loud) asked it a question about whether she should go on a raw food diet, and it printed out in REAL WORDS that she should go on a raw food diet.

I know this is impossible because I know computers and their limitations and keep up with the MIT lab and all that and if a computer could do that, trust me it would be EVERYWHERE.

So far the links I've seen haven't given me enough to send her without her thinking that people are just scared of technology they don't understand. I tried to tell her yesterday that a computer can't literally read your mind and WRITE OUT IN WORDS AN ANSWER.

So, yeah, like the above person who started this thread, I don't want to see her either become scammed into buying one of these things and become a scammer because she truly believes it works and/or use it in place of actual tests that work and have proven to work.

She said that it could even read the blood that had been taken out of your body as having the SAME bio-feedback responses as her blood that was in her body that the machine was reading.

What do I do? Do I turn this person who is working with her in? How do I go about that? I've never done it before (though I've called the police when necessary so have no issues turning in a charlatan).

Help would be great. Thanks."

And, as I wrote before? Help would be fantastic. I need real proof to show her this is b*llsh*t! and not something she wants to get involved in. I have no problem with regular biofeedback. Meditation? Just dandy. But this is her taking her open-mindedness to a new extreme. I'm just worried that in her being scammed, she's going to end up a scammer without even knowing it.

Thanking anybody who has any real data on this in advance as it would be great. Is there any way to get the media interested? Or have it tested in a double blind study? I don't have the money or resources and I don't even know where I would begin. So...I'm beginning here.

-- Molly

 

[Dilb]

Google Scholar, a fairly good tool to search for actual science papers, only gives two links about the EPFX. One is Quackwatch, and one is a completely absurd chapter from a book on 'bioenergy', riddled with factual errors and utter nonsense.

The device, as much as I can tell, measures the resistance of the body with various frequencies with probes strapped onto the head, wrists and ankles. It then turns out a 'naturopathic - whole person oriented' report on every slightly-trendy ailment they could think of: (for some reason they use a picture to list their test categories, here's what I think are the highlights, I guess it scans for diseases and recommends treatments in one swoop)
Allergens
Animal Diseases
Aroma therapy oils
Candidas
Chakras
Chromosomes
Fatty Acids
Flower Essences
Geopathics
Herbs
4 types of homeopathics; Isodes, nosodes, classical, combinations
Ligaments
Miasms
Meridians
Prions
Spiritual Energies
Toxins
Worms

If your sister has such a poor grasp of physics that she can't see why diagnosing any of these with a skin-resistance measurement is completely insane; then she should at least understand that their claim of measuring a person's spiritual well being is beyond crazy.

 

[Cuddles]

Well I'm afraid this is all complete and utter bollocks, but I'm really not sure how you can prove it. The whole idea that measuring resistance between 5 points on the skin can somehow tell you exactly what vitamins, viruses and homeopaths are inside you is just so ridiculous that no-one will have ever even have dreamed about thinking of testing it. If she already believes in homeopathy, chakras, spiritual energy and the rest then there is probably no helping her. On the other hand, if she doesn't believe in all that crap you should point out that since this claims to measure it all it must be fake.

On a different note, I think The Quantum Alliance would make an awesome superhero league.

Edit : In most places there are strict laws about pretending to diagnose illnesses. Any medical regulator should shut this down because it is clearly a fraud. Since they seem to have centres around the world, you could probably just contact your regional regulatory body and tell them about it. For info, their website is http://www.thequantumalliance.com/

 

[Ziggurat]

I tried to tell her yesterday that a computer can't literally read your mind and WRITE OUT IN WORDS AN ANSWER.

Maybe breaking it down in parts would make it easier. Such a device would need to do multiple things. It would need to be able to sense your brain waves, translate them, and then come up with an answer. You and I know that translating brainwaves is far beyond the capacity of current computers (if not impossible because there may not be enough information being sensed), but evidently she's got too little connection to computer technology to figure that one out. So perhaps focus instead on the answering bit. How on earth does the computer actually answer you? It cannot. Have her play around with Google, for example. Have her type in questions, and see what search results pop up. Do that a bunch of times, for random questions about day-to-day activities. You'll find that unless Google can locate a page with the same or substantially similar phrasing for the question, many of the results will be nonsensical, and just contain a lot of the same words but no overlap in meaning. Why? Because Google cannot actually figure out what you mean by the words. It's just too stupid. And google has some pretty damned massive computational power at its disposal, as well as a whole lot of very smart, highly-paid computer scientists to program their machines. If these guys could make a device that could sense your brain waves, translate them, and provide an answer, why aren't they maing machines that can answer typed-in questions? That's an easier task, after all. And they could make a mint off it by making it the new Google.

 

[fls]

Well I'm afraid this is all complete and utter bollocks, but I'm really not sure how you can prove it. The whole idea that measuring resistance between 5 points on the skin can somehow tell you exactly what vitamins, viruses and homeopaths are inside you is just so ridiculous that no-one will have ever even have dreamed about thinking of testing it.

To be fair, the idea that passing a magnet over my body can provide a detailed picture of every muscle, organ and nerve in my body sounds so ridiculous that I wouldn't have ever even dreamed about thinking of testing it....

Linda

 

[Cuddles]

To be fair, the idea that passing a magnet over my body can provide a detailed picture of every muscle, organ and nerve in my body sounds so ridiculous that I wouldn't have ever even dreamed about thinking of testing it....

Linda

True, but by the time they built machines that could do that there was some pretty solid theory that said it was possible, whereas there is no evidence that half the things this machine looks for even exist, let alone can be detected by it.

 

[fls]

True, but by the time they built machines that could do that there was some pretty solid theory that said it was possible, whereas there is no evidence that half the things this machine looks for even exist, let alone can be detected by it.

I'm just thinking that many people (including physicians) will not know this in advance - the validity of the "theory"/technology behind a machine - considering that science now has us used to hearing quite ridiculous things that are unquestioned as true (special relativity, quantum mechanics, all kinds of invisible forces, etc.). So "sounds ridiculous" may not be a particularly convincing way to discredit something.

Linda

 

[Cuddles]

I'm just thinking that many people (including physicians) will not know this in advance - the validity of the "theory"/technology behind a machine - considering that science now has us used to hearing quite ridiculous things that are unquestioned as true (special relativity, quantum mechanics, all kinds of invisible forces, etc.). So "sounds ridiculous" may not be a particularly convincing way to discredit something.

Linda

That's kind of what I was getting at. The problem is that anyone who actually understands any of the theory knows that this is stupid idea, and therefore it hasn't been tested. This means that there is probably not any solid evidence around to explain to the layperson that this idea simply doesn't work. However, I remain confident that a medical or trading standards body should be able to understand this, and therefore should be able to shut it down.

 

[ponderingturtle]

To be fair, the idea that passing a magnet over my body can provide a detailed picture of every muscle, organ and nerve in my body sounds so ridiculous that I wouldn't have ever even dreamed about thinking of testing it....

Linda

And this is why it started with the physicists and chemists with nuclear magnetic resonance. Of course you still need lots of computing power to make images.

 

[mollyblack]

Which is why I wonder where I go next. To my local (in Austin) who? Do I go the Federal route? I know that there should be somebody who has or will test this stupid expensive machine and I don't have the money to spend to debunk it or I would LOVE to.

She's not stupid. She's just a bit gullible about things. I mean I didn't realize there was a whole argument about NLP (as I previously had understood it, started by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Korzybski but checking I can see how I made that mistake...rather it looks like NLP is a bastardization of E-Prime and General Semantics) and she's getting into that now as well.

Arrrgh. Anyway, the point is, if this machine has been outlawed to do what it's being sold to do and yet it's for sale on the site as something that can allegedly do those things, do I turn to the Federal Gov't regarding it? As somebody further up thread has attested, there's not enough stuff out there debunking it properly for me to send to her to break it down. I already tried what I can and there's only so far I can reach her on a "look at computers from this stand point" level.

* Note for Mods: As a person born out of wedlock I technically believe that the term bastard is okay in the way utilized - the quote child of an unholy or non-standard union unquote. If this is not okay, feel free to make it work so that it's not a bad word on the forums.

 

[fls]

That's kind of what I was getting at. The problem is that anyone who actually understands any of the theory knows that this is stupid idea, and therefore it hasn't been tested. This means that there is probably not any solid evidence around to explain to the layperson that this idea simply doesn't work. However, I remain confident that a medical or trading standards body should be able to understand this, and therefore should be able to shut it down.

I thought maybe you were suggesting that "complete and utter bollocks" could be Molly's reply to her sister (In retrospect, an unwarranted thought).

That's a good point. Because the evidence that it doesn't work consists of "all our knowledge of the laws of physics" (or something like that) rather than specific research studies, that gets translated into "no evidence that it doesn't work" for a non-expert. I suppose this goes towards the thread that Skeptigirl started on framing science.

Linda

 

[fls]

Which is why I wonder where I go next. To my local (in Austin) who? Do I go the Federal route? I know that there should be somebody who has or will test this stupid expensive machine and I don't have the money to spend to debunk it or I would LOVE to.

The route to go is to report it to the FDA, but you would have to document that it is being used for medical diagnosis/treatment.

I've never done this myself, but consider contacting quackwatch and the National Council Against Health Fraud and asking them for advice. If you can document that medical claims were made to your sister, that would be in violation of the FDA regulations.

Would your sister read the link that Dilb provided? It seems pretty damning, but maybe that is the same one that you mentioned earlier where you weren't impressed with the anti-evidence.

You don't have to test or debunk this machine. I can be assumed that it does not work unless evidence to the contrary is provided.

Linda

 

[mollyblack]

The route to go is to report it to the FDA, but you would have to document that it is being used for medical diagnosis/treatment.

I've never done this myself, but consider contacting quackwatch and the National Council Against Health Fraud and asking them for advice. If you can document that medical claims were made to your sister, that would be in violation of the FDA regulations.

Would your sister read the link that Dilb provided? It seems pretty damning, but maybe that is the same one that you mentioned earlier where you weren't impressed with the anti-evidence.

You don't have to test or debunk this machine. I can be assumed that it does not work unless evidence to the contrary is provided.

Linda

Well, she believes it works and there lies my quandry. I can't disprove to her that it's somebody saying it's working when she truly believes that it is. That's why I guess I should take her up on the coupon she offered me for the free test and go in as though I believe it and from there I could say these people are using it is as a real medical device.

Would those of you who have read this recommend that route? Since I'm actually sick and she's foisting homeopathic cure after new age cure on me (she didn't do this in the past, this is actually a new development since moving to Austin and her getting involved with a fairly woo-woo heavy crowd) that doesn't work, I'm feeling sort of depressed. *Sigh* She even believes that the whole thing where they do the AK (Applied Kiniseology) works and that it worked on her. She thinks it's helped her get healthy. But if that was the case, then why is she always having to move on to the next new age thing? Wouldn't the last one still be working?

*Huge Sigh* Okay, more water and more reading of the books to take my mind off this.

And thank you to everybody who is chiming in. You're being very supportive and I appreciate it. Over on Model Mayhem it seems like every thread devolves after the first page or two. So far, I've only seen that happen on one thread I've read here, which is fairly encouraging. I'm taking all advice to heart and figuring out the best way to handle this so she doesn't go the route I'm worried she's going to end up going.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Would a doctor lose their license for using such a machine in violating standard of care?

 

[fls]

Would a doctor lose their license for using such a machine in violating standard of care?

There would have to be a complaint filed, which probably needs to come from a patient. And they probably wouldn't lose their license, unless they were particularly belligerent. Usually consequences would be something like telling them to stop, and to partake of an education program.

The patients don't usually complain, though.

However, that's a good suggestion for Molly. She could ask her sister if she has checked with the state medical board as to whether an unapproved machine would be considered a violation of standard care. It might make her think.

Linda

 

[fls]

Well, she believes it works and there lies my quandry. I can't disprove to her that it's somebody saying it's working when she truly believes that it is. That's why I guess I should take her up on the coupon she offered me for the free test and go in as though I believe it and from there I could say these people are using it is as a real medical device.

Would those of you who have read this recommend that route?

That may be a good idea. I think you'd have to document it in order for an investigation to proceed (hidden cameras or tape recorder), but I am talking out of my ass. The people at quackwatch and NCAHF (like Dr. Barrett) would have a better idea.

*Huge Sigh* Okay, more water

I see you're into homeopathy, too.

Linda

 

[mollyblack]

That may be a good idea. I think you'd have to document it in order for an investigation to proceed (hidden cameras or tape recorder), but I am talking out of my ass. The people at quackwatch and NCAHF (like Dr. Barrett) would have a better idea.

I see you're into homeopathy, too.

Linda

No, I mean normal, every day, filtered water. I asked her if they used that too and she said yes. I told her about the concentration of it. I don't know, but I'll get in touch with Quackwatch and NCAHF and Penn's radio show, to see if I can get them to do a focus on this thing. Not just because of my sister, but because it's pretty obvious this is an illegal thing going on and the sooner we get some good natured (and media profile type people involved) the sooner that some results might happen. And yeah, if somebody wanted me to go in and record the event, I could do that.

 

[waterkeet]

A wonderful investigation of the EPFX hoax was done by the Seattle Times newspaper on Nov 19, 2007. Just google "seattle times epfx" and send it to your sister. (Coincidentally, I have a sister in Austin in the same boat as yours, and this article convinced her.) The investigation exposes the "inventor" of the EPFX, a flamboyant transvestite named William Nelson who lives lavishly in Budapest as an international fugitive from US arrest warrants for fraudulent medical claims. The article mentions a Microsoft engineer who took the machine apart and found that the output was random, not specifically diagnostic. There have been at least three deaths attributed to this machine, due to cancer victims foregoing medical treatment in favor of EPFX treatments. So I applaud you in your efforts to help your well meaning sister to avoid harming people by furthering this hoax.

 

[mollyblack]

waterkeet,

I just got interviewed due to this very forum post by a journalist team down here in Austin due to the Lance Armstrong aspect that has come out. I found out about the article from the journalist who interviewed me. He and his cameraman asked me questions about why it bothers me and other such things. I will find out whether or not I got led to slaughter or not in another week or so. I'll definitely post a link to his finished piece once it goes online.

-- Molly

 

[Chris Haynes]

A wonderful investigation of the EPFX hoax was done by the Seattle Times newspaper on Nov 19, 2007. ....

Linky here:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/medicaldevices/