Election soon in Ontario - alien kitten eater looking better

[kourama]

For the upcoming elections in Ontario, I plan on spending a few hours next sunday online looking carefully at each party's position on things, and then make a decision.

One thing, though, is for sure: I am not voting for the Tories.

For those of you who are not in ontario, the tory party has been doing a lot of mudslinging, which included a release to the press where the liberal oponent was referred to as a kitten-eating lizard from another planet. f*cking brilliant.

But the truth is, I don't really care about that, politics is a dirty business, after all. What I DO care about is that Ernie Eves wants to sell the LCBO to private interests.

My position on selling financially viable public property to private interests: he should be thrown in jail for it.

Look what happened with the 407 highway - taxpayers paid for it, and now we can't use it without paying exhorbitant fees to a private company! why? Because a crooked politician needed to pay back some sleazy friends fo his for who-knows-what sleazy back-door shenanigans.

So what's left? Liberal, NDP & other. swell. I'll read up on their positions and decide, but it's be like deciding on my own method of execution....ugh.

 

[soccer_ref]

.....
But the truth is, I don't really care about that, politics is a dirty business, after all. What I DO care about is that Ernie Eves wants to sell the LCBO to private interests.

....

Look what happened with the 407 highway - ....
....t
So what's left? Liberal, NDP & other. swell. I'll read up on their positions and decide, but it's be like deciding on my own method of execution....ugh.

A better place to look might be the Alberta experience in selling off its Province-run liquor stores. I have no idea whether the decision to do so has worked out but you should look at Alberta's experience before judging the vote on just one issue.

Carefully watch the promises all parties will make to special interest groups. When the NDP came to power (a long ago fluke) they owed so many groups, especially big labour, that the first year of their mandate was a disaster. Later years brought about "Rae Days" and other jolly remedies as they tried to fix what they had done in the first year.

My thoughts:
These days governments really don't have a lot of room to move. Deviations from a middle of the road path brings the wrath of the money merchants down on them and forces corrections.

 

[Thanz]

Re: Re: Election soon in Ontario - alien kitten eater looking better

Carefully watch the promises all parties will make to special interest groups. When the NDP came to power (a long ago fluke) they owed so many groups, especially big labour, that the first year of their mandate was a disaster. Later years brought about "Rae Days" and other jolly remedies as they tried to fix what they had done in the first year.

This isn't really that correct or fair. The NDP came into power right at the start of a recession - one that hit both Canada and the United States. The recession can't be laid at their door. However, the recession meant that provincial tax revenue went down in the first year of their mandate for the first time in X number of years, where X was a large number. So, they made a bunch of promises that were impossible to keep when the economy bent them over.

 

[soccer_ref]

Re: Re: Re: Election soon in Ontario - alien kitten eater looking better

This isn't really that correct or fair. The NDP came into power right at the start of a recession - one that hit both Canada and the United States. The recession can't be laid at their door. However, the recession meant that provincial tax revenue went down in the first year of their mandate for the first time in X number of years, where X was a large number. So, they made a bunch of promises that were impossible to keep when the economy bent them over.

Some of the promises were rash. An example that comes to mind was revamping the Labour Code. As I recall, that had to be undone by successor governments.

I have to admit I was not living in Ontario at the time - still don't (lucky me) - but it seems to me that Ontario's problems were made MUCH worse by the Rae government's actions in the first year in office. The promises they made bound them to spend a lot of money at a time when the Province's revenues were bound to take a hit.

It was too bad that the NDP came to power in this fashion. As I recall, EVERYONE was shocked that they were actually elected. Even the NDP. They had made promises they did not expect to have to fulfill. I think there's a couple of messages here:

As a political party, always expect to win and never promise what you can't (or should not) deliver.

As an electorate, never vote for a "protest" party. Always vote for the party you think will do the best job if elected. In Ontario, that year too many people voted for the third party "in protest" and they ended up governing. It wasn't pretty.

 

[arcticpenguin]

For those of you who are not in ontario, the tory party has been doing a lot of mudslinging, which included a release to the press where the liberal oponent was referred to as a kitten-eating lizard from another planet. f*cking brilliant.

Could you provide more info on this please? As a kitten-eating lizard from another planet I may look into a defamation lawsuit.

 

[kourama]

When Bob Rae got elected, he killed the nuclear power plant...damn, can't remember the project name...he put a lot of people out of work, but the really stupid thing is that we ended up burning more coal to produce power and importing more power that was produced from coal-burning plants, and this was supposed to SAVE the envioronment! Also, the no-fault insurance thing was so hair-brained..ugh, don't get me started.

Could you provide more info on this please? As a kitten-eating lizard from another planet I may look into a defamation lawsuit.

you mean being associated with the liberal party? Hmmm, the suit may have merit...

 

[Cleopatra]

But the truth is, I don't really care about that, politics is a dirty business

Kourama

I didn't expect this comment coming from somebody who quotes "The Epitaph" of Thucydites to his signature

Politics is our attitude towards society;our participation or our abstention constitute a political position, a political attitude, a lifestyle.

Don't claim innocence!!!

Keep us updated please, this is interesting!

 

[kourama]

Re: Re: Election soon in Ontario - alien kitten eater looking better

But the truth is, I don't really care about that, politics is a dirty business

Kourama

I didn't expect this comment coming from somebody who quotes "The Epitaph" of Thucydites to his signature

Politics is our attitude towards society;our participation or our abstention constitute a political position, a political attitude, a lifestyle.

Don't claim innocence!!!

Keep us updated please, this is interesting!

What's wrong with the statement? Politics is a dirty business because of, in my opinion, the very nature of human beings. We all generally agree that mudslinging, being evasive, and making promises you know you can't keep is both dirty and an integral part of politics, don't we?

 

[Cleopatra]

Re: Re: Re: Election soon in Ontario - alien kitten eater looking better

We all generally agree that mudslinging, being evasive, and making promises you know you can't keep is both dirty and an integral part of politics, don't we?

Of course we do and guess what; we have the power to change it too!!!

 

[Blondin]

The exact words were:

evil reptilian kitten-eater from another planet

This is grossly unfair. Dalton McGuinty will have no trouble proving he was born right here on Earth. Also I'm pretty sure they were rabbits not kittens.

Seriously, though. You would think the Tories would have learned something from Kim Campbell's disastrous campaign tactic of a few years ago.

 

[TruthSeeker]

But of course, this name calling and drama leads one to divert attention from the issues. Eves cannot justify what has been done to health care, education (and undoubtedly others) and scandals like Walkerton and Aylmer. Even his flip-flop on same sex marriage is without logic. Name calling is his only hope.

We are doomed because I strongly suspect he will be elected.

 

[Segnosaur]

Re: Re: Election soon in Ontario - alien kitten eater looking better

Could you provide more info on this please? As a kitten-eating lizard from another planet I may look into a defamation lawsuit.

For those members not familiar with the Ontario election (or the kitten-eating remark):

http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20030912.wonta0912/BNStory/National/

The bizarre insult, contained in a statement e-mailed to media representatives shortly before lunchtime, immediately deflected attention from the health-care agenda that the Conservatives had hoped to pitch Friday.

"Dalton McGuinty," the statement said. "He's an evil reptilian kitten-eater from another planet."

Conservative Leader Ernie Eves blamed the release on a staffer who apparently "had too much coffee this morning ... too much time."

Ok, a, well, interesting thing to state. But, most people would recognize it as a joke (although a bad one which might negatively reflect . But keep in mind that the liberals have also been guilty of 'name calling' (for example, comparing Eves to a used car salesman).

 

[Segnosaur]

But of course, this name calling and drama leads one to divert attention from the issues. Eves cannot justify what has been done to health care, education (and undoubtedly others) and scandals like Walkerton and Aylmer. Even his flip-flop on same sex marriage is without logic. Name calling is his only hope.

We are doomed because I strongly suspect he will be elected.

Lets see...

On health care, Ontario hasn't been perfect, but keep in mind that the provincial government wasn't responsible for cutting back health care spending, it was the federal government.

The liberal party wants to 'fix' health care by eliminating all 'private' clinics (does that include abortion clinics? who knows.) They also want to form some sort of medical 'teams' to make up for doctor shortages, without saying where those doctors would come from.

Education? The conservatives tried to stop waste in the educational system (and I believe it needed it), by removing the power to raise taxes from school board representatives and requiring they stay within a budget. They also brought in standardized curriculum/testing, and they want to ban teacher's strikes. (Both of which make sense to me.) The Liberal government doesn't want to ban teacher strikes (yet they claim that they want to make students the 'first' priority.)

Walkerton? Hmmm... The problems with the water were due to the bungling of 2 public employees who had been working there long before Harris got into power. The province privatized water testing, but the testing was done properly and reported to the government; it was the civil servants and local government who were more to blame.

As for his 'flip flop' on same sex marriges, I can't comment on that because I don't really know (or care) what his position is; but, before you criticize him for 'flip flopping', why don't you start with the federal liberals, who have 'flip flopped' more than anyone else on the issue. (I'm not saying that same sex marriges are 'wrong'; however, our prime minister has been more inconsistent than anyone.)

We have had a totally incompetent federal government for quite a while. (Tax increases, constant scandals, government waste, failure to act on important events like SARS) The only reason why Canada hasn't been screwed up more than it should be is that we had a provincial government that was reasonably responsible fiscally. (They figured out that if you cut taxes and spending, you can actually improve the economy and thus collect even more tax revenue.)

If we get both a federal and provincial liberal left-wing government, then we are really doomed.

 

[Segnosaur]

For those of you who are not in ontario, the tory party has been doing a lot of mudslinging, which included a release to the press where the liberal oponent was referred to as a kitten-eating lizard from another planet. f*cking brilliant.

Before you start complaining about the tory party 'mudslinging', remember that the Torys are not the only ones who are guilty. As I mentioned before, the liberals have made comments comparing Eves to a "Used Car Salesman". (Now, you may claim 'if the shoe fits...'; however, if you want to be consistent, you can't complain about mud slinging by one party but ignore it when it is done by a party you agree with.)

But the truth is, I don't really care about that, politics is a dirty business, after all. What I DO care about is that Ernie Eves wants to sell the LCBO to private interests.

Why is that such a big issue with you? Do you think they'll give it away and not get anything back?

If they can sell off the LCBO, get a good price, and end up with stores that have better service, then why not? (Remember, it wasn't too long ago that the LCBO stores actually started to offer good service.)

My position on selling financially viable public property to private interests: he should be thrown in jail for it.

Why should the government be involved in business like selling alcohol? And if you think that government does a good job selling alcohol, why stop there? Grocery stores make a lot of money. Maybe the govenment should step in and take them all over. (They'd be financially viable.)

The fact that it is financially viable should have nothing to do with it. The issue should be whether services could be improved and/or costs to the consumer reduced by selling them off.

Look what happened with the 407 highway - taxpayers paid for it, and now we can't use it without paying exhorbitant fees to a private company! why? Because a crooked politician needed to pay back some sleazy friends fo his for who-knows-what sleazy back-door shenanigans.

Maybe the reason you have to pay fees is because roads are expensive to build and maintain, and paying tolls is viewed by many as a way to pay for the const of construction.

So what's left? Liberal, NDP & other. swell. I'll read up on their positions and decide, but it's be like deciding on my own method of execution....ugh.

Lets see...

Liberals? Remember, we have a liberal government in Ottawa, which is probably the dirtiest ever. Even if you make the claim that the provincial and federal liberal parties are two different organizations, there is a lot to be wary of the liberals over. I think they'd be too friendly to the teachers for example (they refuse to outlaw strikes).

NDP? Can you say 'tax increase'? I think they deserve a severe beating for their proposed $10 a day daycare. Quebec has the same type of system, which is A) very expensive, and B) is poorly run.

 

[kourama]

Segnosaur,

You make some good points, but I want to make clear that I'm not currently for any party. The mudslinging fills me with ennui, but not any more loathing for tories.

As far as the LCBO is concerned, I don't trust the government to get a good price or make an honest deal, no matter who is in charge. The amount of money involved makes it too easy for politicans to practice pork-barrel politics. Whether private interests can do a better job was not part of the argument.

As for the 407, true, we would have paid to use the highway anyway, BUT, once it was paid for, the tolls would/should have ended. Since it's being run for profit, the tolls will never stop.

We agree on the quality of the choices.

Cleopatra: I agree we collectively have the power to change politics somewhat, but I think human nature is such that when power is distributed non-uniformly over humanity there will be corruption. I don't think there is a utopian solution (sorry, shanek) but I do think things can get better in general if we follow a few philosophical guidelines:

1) power should be as evenly distributed as possible - constitutions, laws and other organizations secular and non-secular should seek to prevent over-accumulation of power in small groups of people

2) war should be made unprofitable - I confess I have only begun to think about this, but I have seen evidence of profits of several companies increasing in times of war, and it strikes me as quite scary and suspicious

3) individual liberty should be as important as personal responsibility. How can we enforce 1 without interfering with the other...tough problem.

I'm sure there's more, but I got too many managers walking by my cubicle at the moment...

 

[Thanz]

Re: Re: Election soon in Ontario - alien kitten eater looking better

Why is that such a big issue with you? Do you think they'll give it away and not get anything back?

If they can sell off the LCBO, get a good price, and end up with stores that have better service, then why not? (Remember, it wasn't too long ago that the LCBO stores actually started to offer good service.)

Why should the government be involved in business like selling alcohol? And if you think that government does a good job selling alcohol, why stop there? Grocery stores make a lot of money. Maybe the govenment should step in and take them all over. (They'd be financially viable.)

The fact that it is financially viable should have nothing to do with it. The issue should be whether services could be improved and/or costs to the consumer reduced by selling them off.

Just regarding the LCBO - I think that the LCBO kicks some serious @$$ and there is no way it should be sold off for some quick cash to make a government's books look good for a year.

The service that I get at the LCBO is second to none. They will order in to any location any product that is in its listing at no additional charge. The new stores have great services and programs (like cooking classes and wine tastings) that further enhance the experience. The LCBO makes money for the province - it is not a fiscal drain in any way.

As for prices, most of the price of beverage alcohol is tax. That will not change in a new regime. And any new private regime will not have the same sort of purchasing power as the LCBO - which is the single largest purchaser of beverage alcohol in the world. If they can't get a "volume discount" from alcohol manufacturers, no one can.

In terms of "why alcohol? why not groceries?" the answer is simple. Alcohol is a legal product, but only to non-intoxicated adults. The LCBO, as a government run entity, has no profit motive that may cause them to sell to these individuals. A private retailer would have such an incentive.

Basically, I see many reasons for Ontario holding on to the LCBO and no reasons for selling it.

 

[Segnosaur]

You make some good points, but I want to make clear that I'm not currently for any party.

But you specifically said you would not support the conservatives. Which is almost the same.

Now, I don't mind that, but I felt your reasoning about why you were against them was very flawed. (You know, I'm always amazed at how people will go out of their way to find reasons to not support the Conservatives, or the Alliance/Reform party.)

If you want to vote against them, fine.. But at least be honest about the reason (you are against tax cuts, you want more government control, whatever.)

The mudslinging fills me with ennui, but not any more loathing for tories.

But, you specifically mentioned some 'mud slinging' by the Tories, without mentioning similar (if not worse) comments by the Liberals. That implies a strong bias against the tories.

As far as the LCBO is concerned, I don't trust the government to get a good price or make an honest deal, no matter who is in charge. The amount of money involved makes it too easy for politicans to practice pork-barrel politics.

Ok, so you want to vote against the conservatives, because you fear the LCBO sale will lead to more pork-barrel politics. However, the conservative government has shown a desire to cut the size of the government, whereas the liberals and NDP will increase it.

Now, whenever you increase government spending, you increase the chances of pork-barreling. So, if that's your main concern, you are being penny-wise and pound-foolish.

Whether private interests can do a better job was not part of the argument.

But it should be part of the argument.

As for the 407, true, we would have paid to use the highway anyway, BUT, once it was paid for, the tolls would/should have ended. Since it's being run for profit, the tolls will never stop.

The highway itself is still being paid for. (Heck, parts of it are still being built.). Its a bit early to complain about them earning profits on it when it still hasn't recouped its costs.

 

[Agammamon]

"kitten-eating lizard from another planet"


Why can't our politicians come up with stuff like this. As the WSJ has it
"The communists in North Korea managed to call John Bolton, the undersecretary of state who bluntly criticized them, "rude human scum" and a "bloodsucker." How is it that colorless apparatchiks in backward regimes can come up with such colorful locutions . . ."

 

[Segnosaur]

Re: Re: Re: Election soon in Ontario - alien kitten eater looking better

Just regarding the LCBO - I think that the LCBO kicks some serious @$$ and there is no way it should be sold off for some quick cash to make a government's books look good for a year.

Shouldn't you wait and see what deal was made before you complain about it being sold off for 'quick cash'?

Right now, LCBO profits go back into govenrment coffers. However, if its sold (for a decent price), the money can be used to pay down part of the debt (or, if its sold after the debt is removed, the money can go into investments, etc.) So, not only would the sale make the government's books look good now, it would have a longer term impact. (That's assuming the government doesn't blow it on day-care programs, or short term frivilous projects.)

The service that I get at the LCBO is second to none. They will order in to any location any product that is in its listing at no additional charge. The new stores have great services and programs (like cooking classes and wine tastings) that further enhance the experience.

Glad to hear that you're so happy with LCBO services. (Remember, it was only a few short years ago that they didn't even open on Sunday.)

Glad to hear that you're so happy with their service. But, not everyone is so pleased. Many wine growers in Ontario are upset because they can't get their products listed with the LCBO.

Now, you pointed out their special programs. Guess what? You're paying for those programs out of the higher prices that you pay at the LCBO. (So people who don't use them subsidize those who do.) And why do you think that those programs will disappear once its privatized? (2 stores that I use regularly... PetSmart and Home Depot, have courses at them too, and they aren't run by the government.)

The LCBO makes money for the province - it is not a fiscal drain in any way.

I never said it was a drain. But, the markups mean that booze costs more than it should. (more on that below)

As for prices, most of the price of beverage alcohol is tax. That will not change in a new regime. And any new private regime will not have the same sort of purchasing power as the LCBO - which is the single largest purchaser of beverage alcohol in the world. If they can't get a "volume discount" from alcohol manufacturers, no one can.

Lets look at some figures here...
- In 2001-2002, the LCBO had 2.9billion in sales, and had 900million profit. That's a profit of around 30%. Hey, maybe taxes account for the remainder of the 70%. But a 30% rate of profit in any other industry would cause a lot of complaints. (Remember, you are paying for that when you go to the LCBO)
- Now, that's just profits. There are some very high costs associated with There are a lot of people earning a lot more money than they should from the LCBO... Many beaurcrats earn over 100k per year, the 'regular' employees are unionized and earn much more than a regular retail employee would, and they've spent a lot more money renevating stores when they didn't need to.

Now, you mentioned the LCBO has this 'purchasing power' because it buys in large quantities. However, there is no reason to believe that a privatized LCBO (whether it is kept as a large scale corporate entity or set up as smaller chains) cannot also get bulk discounts. (Whether you buy 1 million or 10 million bottles, you'll probably get the same discount.) In fact, depending on the terms of sale, you could still have the province buying the booze, but relying on privatized companies to sell it.

(Even if there were "volume savings", they'd have to be pretty remarkable to make up for the 30% profit markup. Especially if, as you said, most of the price is taxes.)

In terms of "why alcohol? why not groceries?" the answer is simple. Alcohol is a legal product, but only to non-intoxicated adults. The LCBO, as a government run entity, has no profit motive that may cause them to sell to these individuals. A private retailer would have such an incentive.

I suggested groceries (actually I could have suggested any product) as a counter to the argument "why sell of something that makes money". (Legal restrictions were not a concern in this argument.)

Now, lets look at your claims...
- "The LCBO (as a government entity) has no profit motive". Have to disagree here... There is a profit motive. If the LCBO looses money, there is a greater chance that the government will sell it off. That is the profit motive.
- Even if there was a "profit motive" for a private LCBO to sell to people it shouldn't, there is a strong dis-incentive... namely, the government could impose fines and/or remove liscences for selling illegally
- And lets face it, the people running it are not the ones responsible for the actual sales, it is the rank-and-file clerks, who get their paycheck whether they sell or not; they don't work under any profit motive.

Basically, I see many reasons for Ontario holding on to the LCBO and no reasons for selling it.

Now, frankly, I don't know if its a good idea or not. Guess what? I would want to wait until I saw the terms of the sale before I came to a conclusion.

For more information, see:
http://www.grapegrowersofontario.com/thepress/news_views/0902_milklcbo_cashcow.html
http://www.canadiangrassroots.ca/sections.php?op=printpage&artid=2885
(I just found these in a quick google search.)

 

[Supercharts]

An alien tht eats cats?
Reminds me of the TV program A.L.F. This was, in fact, a series about an alien life form that ate cats. This was the best show on TV at the time it was shown. It had the moral virtue of getting rid of cats. It had humor. It was real family entertainment. Should have won a lot of Emmy's. Personally the candidate should be proud of being compared to A.L.F.