[Ed.] Original Sin?

[JanisChambers]

I imagine not many Christian Apologists venture around this site very often, but I would love to hear any answers available. I am very confused about the logic of "Origional Sin". From what I can tell Adam and Eve were completely innocent before they suddenly assimilated the knowledge of Good and Evil. By not listening to God they committed the first sin and for that they and all future generations were cursed.

First question:

If Adam and Eve were completely innocent when committing the sin of disobedience, how could God punish them as if they should have known better? What did God really expect of two beings that could not yet conceive of evil actions?

Second question:

Even given that Adam and Eve had actually committed a sin they could be found guilty of, what Justifies God's further decision of continuing the curse though every generation until the end of time?

Third question:

Regarding being "reborn". After several thousand years of people living and dying (including a genocidal flood) God then decides to forgive the ancestors of Adam and Eve by the Sacrifice of the Third aspect of God "The Son". This allows people to embrace the forgiveness of God, however it does not reverse the curses that were placed on Adam and Eve such as Man having to 'till the soil' or women having to suffer childbirth or menstruation. Further, why do these curses not cease after one is "reborn"?

Fourth question:

The sin seems (to me) to be a sin of disobedience, the Sin of not listening to God. The result was that Adam and Eve knew of Good and Evil. The essence of my question is why is this such a bad thing? We do everything in our power to teach our children right from wrong, we carefully watch our children in their youth to make sure they do not harm themselves or harm others all in the hope they eventually take on responsibility in their actions.
So, why was the sin such a sin?

Final question:

In the age of Moses God makes ten commandments that man is to follow. I find it odd that God did not make the ten commandments in the age of Adam and Eve. The law "thou shall not kill" could have helped when Cain slew Abel, but there was no such tablet in those days. So why did it take God so long?

I have to close with not so much a question as just a comment. God left Adam and Eve, two innocents even unaware they were nude, alone with bad influences (the snake) and a powerful temptation. In essence, it was children being children, but he punished them for something they could not understand that he could have very easily prevented. In the end, this just makes God out to be a very irresponsible parent.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Are you expecting logic?

I too await the answer.

 

[andyandy]

If you can find an answer more involved than

"God works in mysterious ways"

"It is not the place of man to question the wisdom of God"

"It is part of God's plan"

then you'll have done well.

 

[DangerousBeliefs]

alone with bad influences (the snake)

But the snake told the truth... and God lied. So how was it the bad influence?

If anything that story should have served as a warning - don't trust what God says... and there are other places in the Bible he clearly lies or deceives.

Actually, it kind of sounds... you know... made up... by maybe some priests who were trying to get folks to obey them.. er God, I mean.

 

[JanisChambers]

Honestly I don't expect any good answer, but it's fun hearing people try. Besides, if I didn't keep myself open to that possible all-saving answer, I really couldn't call myself a skeptic.

 

[JanisChambers]

Logic, yes. Logic without any flaws, no.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

It doesn't make any logical sense but it makes alot of emotional and mythological sense and for that, I treasure the Adam and Eve story. It can be analyzed and picked apart for themes and interpreted in many different ways, just like a classic fairy tale.

As for the question of Original Sin, I suppose you'd punish your kids for disobeying you and being weak, selfish and arrogant even though they're still kids. Kids, but not babies.

 

[ChristineR]

The story was not originally meant to deal with sin at all. It was one of many similar stories where humans learn some of the secrets of the gods (the story uses the plural throughout) and are beaten down for it. It's not clear to me why Yahweh lets Adam and Eve near the forbidden trees--perhaps he secretly wants them to eat from it. In any case the serpent clearly feels sorry for these creatures and lets them in on the secret.

So far as I can make out, the idea of sacrificial atonement comes from the idea that humans will automatically and magically be punished for wrongdoing, and that this can somehow be alleviated by shifting the blame onto some other object.

The idea that fleshy humans are inherently vile was basically a Greek one, although the Jews obviously had their ideas about bodily fluids. The idea that we are degenerated from some sort of diseaseless, eternal perfect body is also pretty common.

Paul appears to have stitched these ideas together and inferred that we suffer because of some sort of cosmic tragedy, which was conveniently chronicled at the front of his Bible. No, it doesn't really make sense--but it was at the front of his Bible. Then he ran headlong into a messianic cult who was claiming that the execution of the messiah was actually the fundamental purpose of the whole thing.

Side note: I can't see how all this could have happened without an actual dead human being, which is why I'm no mythicist.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

It doesn't make any logical sense but it makes alot of emotional and mythological sense and for that, I treasure the Adam and Eve story. It can be analyzed and picked apart for themes and interpreted in many different ways, just like a classic fairy tale.

So can you even give the fairy tale explanation of this story? Believers mouth the words almost without thought. Is it supposed to be wonderful to be this perfectly obedient person? Was what happened fair? Does it even make sense and certainly the Jesus story doesn't make sense. People claim it makes sense like little tape recorders. But the story doesn't make sense.

As for the question of Original Sin, I suppose you'd punish your kids for disobeying you and being weak, selfish and arrogant even though they're still kids. Kids, but not babies.

That's not how I raised my son. It wasn't obeying me he had to do. It was doing things or behaving a certain way because of the reason he needed to do so. Not that I was perfect at this goal, mind you. But if I ever found myself unable to explain the need to so something except to say, "because I told you to", then I knew I had to rethink the rule.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Sure. I can't express this as eloquently as Joseph Campbell but in my view it's a coming-of-age story about growing up and facing the evils of the world. It's a metaphor for what leaving childhood is like and about the painful loss of childlike innocence and naivette.

God is Adam and Eve's parent in the way he has created them, given them everything they wanted and sheltered them from the knowledge of evil. Satan and God act as the adults in the fairy tale and Adam and Eve get in over their heads by finding out the secrets of the adult world. More than they'd ever want to know about death, misery, vulnerability and powerlessness. After which they can never go back to the Garden of Eden, which represents childhood.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

OK, so then how is this sin so horrible to God if the goal was just to keep A&E safe from these evil things? God is the one who dishes out the evil.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Well, the way I understand it, Adam and Eve find out what evil is so they are now capable of committing it so they are in no fit state to live in paradise. It's not just that they disobeyed God, it's that they have become sinful.

No, it's Satan who dishes out the evil. God created all the Garden of Eden just for Adam and Eve and nothing bad ever happened there before Satan tempted A & E.

 

[Oubliette]

Well, the way I understand it, Adam and Eve find out what evil is so they are now capable of committing it so they are in no fit state to live in paradise. It's not just that they disobeyed God, it's that they have become sinful.

No, it's Satan who dishes out the evil. God created all the Garden of Eden just for Adam and Eve and nothing bad ever happened there before Satan tempted A & E.

And God created "Lucifer", which later on became "Satan", so it's his fault in the first place, anyway.

Also, it's not that Adam and Eve were now "able to commit evil", that's not the real threat to God, this is:

"And the LORD God said, 'The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever'. So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life."
-Genesis 3:22-24

God knew they were like him now, knowing good and evil, the last thing he wanted was for them to live forever as well, like him, so he kicked them out.

 

[OSS 117]

Hi,

I'll take a stab at it from a rational/logical point of view.

First question:

If Adam and Eve were completely innocent when committing the sin of disobedience, how could God punish them as if they should have known better? What did God really expect of two beings that could not yet conceive of evil actions?

A specific rule was set. It was not permitted to eat of the fruit that gives knowledge of what is good and bad. This privilege is one that God reserve to himself.

The rule given to them implies that they have freedom of thought and action, thus objections like "He should have known better" do not apply.
That rule also nullify your statement they where completely pure. If completely pure, no rule would be necessary.
Also, the fact they broke the one rule also invalidate the claim they where completely innocent.

Second question:

Even given that Adam and Eve had actually committed a sin they could be found guilty of, what Justifies God's further decision of continuing the curse though every generation until the end of time?

Since, it's not well received to answer with speculations on God's motive, it's conversely not fair to question them.

Third question:

Regarding being "reborn". After several thousand years of people living and dying (including a genocidal flood) God then decides to forgive the ancestors of Adam and Eve by the Sacrifice of the Third aspect of God "The Son". This allows people to embrace the forgiveness of God, however it does not reverse the curses that were placed on Adam and Eve such as Man having to 'till the soil' or women having to suffer childbirth or menstruation. Further, why do these curses not cease after one is "reborn"?

As a Catholic, I will skip this question since it's largely an Evangelical type of question in which I am unfamiliar.

Fourth question:

The sin seems (to me) to be a sin of disobedience, the Sin of not listening to God. The result was that Adam and Eve knew of Good and Evil. The essence of my question is why is this such a bad thing? We do everything in our power to teach our children right from wrong, we carefully watch our children in their youth to make sure they do not harm themselves or harm others all in the hope they eventually take on responsibility in their actions.
So, why was the sin such a sin?

The most important question. This knowledge is one that God reserves himself and that men stole by sinning.

But what is it ?

It is not Omniscience since we don't own it.
It is not moral discernments since it's illogical for God to refuse it to his reasonable creature.

Rather it's the faculty to decide for oneself what is good and evil and to live in accordance.
I cannot demonstrate this, but it is a reasonable proposition.

Final question:

In the age of Moses God makes ten commandments that man is to follow. I find it odd that God did not make the ten commandments in the age of Adam and Eve. The law "thou shall not kill" could have helped when Cain slew Abel, but there was no such tablet in those days. So why did it take God so long?

The 10 commandments are all moral truths that can be discerned without God's intervention. It could easily be supposed that murder was known to be wrong before the 10 Commandments as much that it is true that murders continued to occur after the 10 Commandments.

Viewed like this, the notion that the 10 Commandments would have been helpful to Abel - or anyone else - is an oversimplification.

 

[Vox Humana]

First question:

If Adam and Eve were completely innocent when committing the sin of disobedience, how could God punish them as if they should have known better? What did God really expect of two beings that could not yet conceive of evil actions?

A more interesting question (IMHO) is how they could have committed the sin in the first place. If they lacked a sinful/fallen nature, what motivation did they have to disobey?

 

[dglas]

To hell with sin. I choose you, humans!

Gotta collect 'em all!

Original sin is about reinforcing the separation of humanity from itself. Interposing God. Despising ourselves. Eliminating the competition.

 

[OSS 117]

A more interesting question (IMHO) is how they could have committed the sin in the first place. If they lacked a sinful/fallen nature, what motivation did they have to disobey?

A very good question indeed.

Keeping this logical and devout of theological arguments, I'd say that through self-determination, Adam and Eve had the choice to sin or not.
As for us, in spite of self-determination, because of our fallen nature, we cannot help ourselves from sinning.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

....No, it's Satan who dishes out the evil. God created all the Garden of Eden just for Adam and Eve and nothing bad ever happened there before Satan tempted A & E.

Really? Are you sure of that?

In the Skeptic's Annotated Bible and I recently came across this little jewel:

Samuel 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.

12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick....
...12:18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died....

In other words:

(12:11-12)
God is angry at David for having Uriah killed. As a punishment, he will have David's wives raped by his neighbor while everyone else watches. It turns out that the "neighbor" that God sends to do his dirty work is David's own son, Absalom (16:22).

(12:13-18)...To punish David for having Uriah killed and causing others to blaspheme, God kills Bathsheba's baby boy.

There's plenty more: Cruelty and Violence in the Bible.

And lest you bother with the false claim Jesus changed all that, here's a nine minute YouTube video of verses that says otherwise.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

As was pointed out to me I'll share a thought with the believers here that is being demonstrated. Does it make sense for a god to create a text (the Bible) which is so confusing, vague, and full of outright contradictions that no one seems to even know what it is supposed to say?

Skeptic's Annotated Bible's list of contradictions. Skipping the trivial ones still leaves major contradictions. I don't want to derail the thread but suffice it to say even something like adultery is OK in one verse and forbidden in another.

Deuteronomy 24:1-2
When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

Luke 16:18
Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

 

[Tricky]

"There's no such thing as an original sin."

---Elvis Costello​