Merged Dutch MP to be charged for "hate speech"

Is this the same man who called for the banning of the Koran? If so, his cries for free speech are hypocritical in the extreme.

That said, a ludicrous law. Was the South Park episode ridiculing Scientology 'Hate speech'?
 
Yes he did call for its banning.... irony indeed.

I'm curious how this will play out, I don't know how the Dutch legal system works anyone fill us in on the system and how this judgment fits into it? It would appear that it is only a judgment that he can be prosecuted not that he will be prosecuted?
 
Gee, why would anyone want to compare militant Islamists to Nazis? Just because they publicly call for the Jews to be killed...



Any Danish speakers want to verify the translation? (@ the 1:10 mark)

eta: Yes, I know this is Denmark and not the Netherlands.
 
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It is ironic that Wilders has called for banning the Koran, and it makes me lose respect for him as an advocate of free speech. I still think it's wrong to persecute him for this or any other thought crime. Wilders' film, the Koran, Mein Kampf, Submission, Slaughterhouse Five, Animal Farm, and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn should be available to anyone who cares to access them.
 
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Geert Wilders' film was cheap and simplistic and his views of Arabs/Muslims border on bigotry. There's a difference between secular criticism of Islam and intolerance.

However, his courage is very admirable and free speech doesn't mean anything at all if someone isn't allowed to express controversial views. Either it's permissable to express an opinion someone would strongly object to and you have freedom of expression or you don't.
 
I'm curious how this will play out, I don't know how the Dutch legal system works anyone fill us in on the system and how this judgment fits into it? It would appear that it is only a judgment that he can be prosecuted not that he will be prosecuted?

I'd be glad to :). No, the decision is that he now must be prosecuted.

Even before Fitna, a lot of individuals (and institutions like Muslim federations, I guess) have filed complaints about Wilders' various comments with the police and the public prosecutor. It is then in the power of the prosecutor to decide whether he will prosecute a complaint or not. As a rule, the prosecutor will make such a decision within a reasonable time (6 weeks or so), and inform complainant of it. In this case, I gather that the prosecutor dragged his feet to even make the decision to prosecute or not. About a year ago, just before Fitna, there was a TV show around lawyer Gerard Spong (mentioned in the linked BBC article), where a member of the audience identified himself as one of the complainants and mentioned this. Upon that, Spong promised him to help him with the case.

So, in the end the public prosecutor decided not to prosecute.

In that case, according to article 12 of the Dutch Law on Criminal Court Proceedings, interested parties (e.g., complainants) have the option to file a request with the Appeals Court to overturn the decision of the prosecutor. So, what such a request asks is that the Appeals Court instruct the public prosecution to prosecute a case - before a normal court.

A number of the complainants against Wilders have filed such a request with the Amsterdam Appeals Court, and the news item is about the decision of the Appeals Court. From what I've heard on radio and TV, the decision is quite lengthy - 35 pages - and involves not only hate speech charges but several related charges. The bits and pieces I heard recited gave the impression that the Appeals Court, between the lines, in fact already gave a damning verdict on Wilders' comments.

ETA: From what I heard, the Appeals Court considered complaints about Fitna as well as complaints about various earlier comments from Wilders.

However, it is not up to the Appeals Court now to give a verdict. The public prosecutor has to bring the real case before a normal Court; then it'll undoubtedly will go to into appeal before an Appeals Court, whoever wins the case (*), and after that even to the Dutch Supreme Court and the ECHR, as I heard a law professor muse on radio.

(*) obviously Wilders when he loses. But the prosecution also now has the strong moral obligation to pursue the case with all its might. Article 12 decisions in favour of the complaining parties are very rare, only a couple percent of the cases IIRC. So this Appeals Court decision already is a big win for the complainants.

Reactions from political parties have been mixed. The major coalition parties PvdA (Labour) and CDA (Christian-democrat) just said "it's up to the judge". SP (Socialist Party) and VVD (right-wing liberal) regretted it, saying they think discussing with Wilders belongs in the political arena, not the legal arena.

ETA: Wilders, of course, thought the decision ludicrous. He added that he enjoys immunity for everything he says in Parliament, and he could have refrained from making the same statements outside Parliament, but he hadn't done so because that would be hypocritical. He has a good point there.

There is (scarce) legal precedent for prosecuting MPs. Some 20 years ago, Janmaat was successfully prosecuted for anti-foreigner remarks that seem very lame in today's context. Some 10 years ago, fundie-protestant MP Van Dijke was prosecuted for disparaging statements about gays.
 
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Wilder's worldview and film reminds me to the Nazi-German "documentary" "The eternal Jew".

May he rot in prison. :p
 
Wilder's worldview and film reminds me to the Nazi-German "documentary" "The eternal Jew".

May he rot in prison. :p

:D In principle, he could get up to two years in prison for the charges. However, it's quite unlikely he'll get it; and it would be very unwise, as it would needlessly make a martyr out of him.

BTW, the official papers are already up:

Press release of the Appeals Court: (English) (Dutch)

Verdict of the Appeals Court: (Dutch)
 
Imagine if he said this about Jews? Crikey! They'd probably arrest everyone who heard it too.
 
Wilder's worldview and film reminds me to the Nazi-German "documentary" "The eternal Jew".

May he rot in prison. :p

Don't you think there is a difference between being an anti-semite and anti-Islam? If this man was anti-Arab (he may be, for all I know) then you would be on firmer ground to offer that comparison.

If there was a film that was anti-Judiac -not anti-semitic- I hope you would not declare your hope that the director would rot in prison.
 
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I just read the article, and although I think free-speech should be respected this pushes me to the limit. It just looks like he is actively trying to provoke an extreme reaction. Thats what he wants, and he's been doing it for a good few years now, and the muslims have learnt to just ignore him. He has spent years living in Israel and many non muslim countries in the middle east, never spending time with muslims in their usual peaceful democratic environments, always on the 'opposing' (in his mind) side. He says he wants the Israeli indefinate detention without trial method set up in Holland and wants imigration to stop outright.

Not only he, but all Dutch citizens opposed to the "Islamisation" of their country would be on trial, Mr Wilders warned.

"Who will stand up for our culture if I am silenced?" he added. [....]

The film ends with the statement: "Stop Islamisation. Defend our freedom."


He has also said he is "waging a Jihad against Islam". When was Netherlands invaded by Islamists? Did I miss it?

Anyone got crime statistics for Holland? I expect that just like most EU countries, muslim and islamic people are amoungst the lowest cited in crime statistics.

Did anyone watch the brilliant interview with him at the bottom of the BBC article? It was with Stephen Sackur, my favoirte journalist. Always gets to the crux of the issue and keeps going until they give in. An interview with him is never easy, and this one does not disappoint. pwnd him a treat, he looked very uncomfortable by the end. Link again: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7842344.stm
 
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Imagine if he said this about Jews? Crikey! They'd probably arrest everyone who heard it too.


Oh, I know some forum members who would go ape **** about Wilder's if he would rant about the Jews the same way he does about the Muslims. :)
 
Imagine if he said this about Jews?

Well, in THAT case, they would give him welfare benefits, citizenship, and a government post to advise it about "Combating Islamophobia", since similar and far worse claims about the Jews are made in Wahhabi-influenced mosques there, every day.

In any case, what matters is if it's TRUE, doesn't it? The movies he made are hardly objective, but they are not nearly as unobjective as making the same claims about Jews would be -- mainly because Jewish synagogues usually do not have rabbis who give sermons about how all non-Jews are apes and pigs and how Judaism will take over the world, to name one difference.

By the way: once more, the great supporters of "freedom of speech", instead of codemning this actions of censorship, are all for it -- or at least excuse it -- because, after all, it's only the violation of freedom of speech of someone they dislike. It is obvious, folks, that if any of us is ever in the risk of getting jailed for having an unpopular opinion, the support of the "free speech" crowd would strictly depend on how sympathetic our views are -- that is, how much they agree with us.

Never go tiger hunting with these guys, as they used to say in England. They're pathetic.
 
It is ironic that Wilders has called for banning the Koran, and it makes me lose respect for him as an advocate of free speech. I still think it's wrong to persecute him for this or any other thought crime. Wilders' film, the Koran, Mein Kampf, Submission, Slaughterhouse Five, Animal Farm, and The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn should be available to anyone who cares to access them.

He's not being prosecuted for a "thought crime", he's being prosecuted for inciting hatred.

I realize ddt put up the links after you posted this but I recommend that you read the english press release and lay off the cheap rhetorics.
 
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Anyone got crime statistics for Holland? I expect that just like most EU countries, muslim and islamic people are amoungst the lowest cited in crime statistics.

<snip>

Haven't got the numbers handy, but they might be available through the Dutch Statistics Bureau

I do know from having worked on these statistics when I worked at the Dutch Legal Aid Board that certain minorities are in fact strongly overrepresented (statistically speaking) when it comes to crime.
 

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