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Drug dogs OK with the Supremes

crimresearch

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Jan 20, 2004
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"The Supreme Court ruled Monday that police can have dogs check out motorists' vehicles for drugs even if officers have no particular reason to suspect illegal activity...."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...=/ap/20050124/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_drug_dogs
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"Held:
A dog sniff conducted during a concededly lawful traffic stop that reveals no information other than the location of a substance that no individual has any right to possess does not violate the Fourth Amendment."


http://a257.g.akamaitech.net/7/257/....supremecourtus.gov/opinions/04pdf/03-923.pdf
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As long as they stick firmly to the 'during' part, and don't start holding people on zero suspicion until a dog can be found, I don't see where it is much different than the officer smelling dope during a traffic stop.
 
As long as they stick firmly to the 'during' part, and don't start holding people on zero suspicion until a dog can be found, I don't see where it is much different than the officer smelling dope during a traffic stop. [/B]

The problem with rulings like this is it further moves the bar to the side of law enforcement rather than people's liberties. I am pretty set against the drug war as we know it as well so this doubly bothers me.

Any cop can pull over anyone at anytime by simply saying the person didn't signal before changing lanes or what have you so the caveat that it can only be done during a proper stop is rather pointless.

That people not under any suspicion can be searched for anything by any means bothers me. Next thing we will have cops set up with their drug dogs at the entrances to pubic events.

How far do liberties need to be eroded for the stupid war on some drugs?
 
There are numerous problems.
1) Drug sniffing dogs find legal drugs as well. In my company, a man was "caught" by a drug sniffing dog for his perscription medicine. It became common knowledge that he was being treated for a mental disease. This clearly did not help his career. Would you like to arrested because you put a legal drug in your glove compartment in something other than its original pill case?
2) As username said, the police will abuse the law.
3) If the dog can check your car, why can't the officer just happen to walk by your house to find drugs?
4) The reaction of a police dog is subjective. The next step is the officer to falsely say the dog reacted to drugs. Then the officer can search anybody anytime. I believe the supreme court has also allowed the unexpected fruit of valid searches to be used against people.
5) The dog search is allowed because it is non-intrusive. What does this mean for future technology that can be used to perform non-intrusive searches? Are we going to see police randomly driving down streets with a device that sniffs out drugs, explosive and ammunition? There are devices that can see through walls? Will there be any limits on these?

Random searches adds very little security to society and have the potential to become great invasions of privacy. The police need to have a reason and a search warrant before searching in any method.

CBL
 
There has long been a balancing act between overzealous cops, and individual liberties...this looks like one more correction.

I have no doubt that law enforcement will perceive this ruling as a starting point, and that sooner or later, the USSC will be ruling on another aspect of it.

The War on Drugs on the other hand, like the War on Terror, the War on Poverty, etc., is a political fabrication, and will always be a mess.
 
So, now, according to the Supreme Court, the police can pull you over, have dogs sniff your car without probable cause, arrest you for refusing to show your papers, and stick even more penalties on top if you ran a TV ad critical of a politician.

Weep for our rights.

I wonder how the Supreme Court apologists are going to justify this? Obviously, we're "not reading it right" or "just don't understand the legalities." What lame excuse are they going to use this time?
 
CBL4 said:

4) The reaction of a police dog is subjective. The next step is the officer to falsely say the dog reacted to drugs. Then the officer can search anybody anytime.

My father trained bomb and drug dogs, and trained handlers how to train bomb and drug dogs, for 25 years in the Air Force. I can assure you that the dog's alert is quite unmistakable.

To assert that the officer prompted the dog - somehow made the dog display an alert even though the dog didn't detect anything - is frivolous and furthermore unfalsifiable. First, if there are drugs in the car, what does it mean to claim the officer prompted the dog? The dog detected the drugs, he didn't need prompting. And if there aren't any drugs, then after the search reveals no drugs you're free to go - the dog's alert gives probable cause to search but it's not arrestable all by itself.

I must say that trying to insist a sniffing dog is somehow a violation of your rights is ludicrous. The dog is sniffing the air around you...and I'm sorry, but your reasonable expectation of privacy does not extend to odors that emanate from your body or vehicle or house. The odor is evidence that you leave behind, out in public. It's like accidentally leaving a bag of cocaine on your dashboard - or even better, on top of your trunk - when you go into the store. Anybody who walks by can see it - including cops. Same thing with odors. Anybody who walks by breathes in those odors - including dogs trained to react to them specifically. Just because it's evidence that you can't easily prevent from being left behind, doesn't mean it shouldn't count as evidence - if that were the case, DNA obtained from hair follicles on a victim's clothing (for example) cannot fairly be admissible as evidence in court either, because it's fundamentally the same kind of evidence. The cops and their dogs just happen to have the edge over perps on this particular issue. Tough luck.

And I wouldn't be too concerned about the K9 seige anyway. K9s are high-maintenance, and police departments don't exactly have armies of them. Not to mention that K9 units are also still patrol units, and people with metal on their shoulders will not be happy with officers who yank K9 units across town on a whim. You have to be either acting suspiciously, or have given information that doesn't add up, or that makes the dispatcher come back with some bad juju.
 
Where you will see this primarily impact are along border routes and checkpoints. The Border Patrol already routinely has dogs at checkpoints and is reponsible for the majority of the drug busts by being positioned between the major towns and more rural areas where many drugs are manfactured. Illegal immigrants have become an excuse to have the checkpoints.

It is common knowledge in southern New Mexico, which is a high meth manufacturing/use region, that "DUI checkpoints" are more about getting dogs a chance to sniff for drugs and check for insurance and registration than looking for drunk drivers.


My opinion is this is search without cause.


Boo
 
...First, if there are drugs in the car, what does it mean to claim the officer prompted the dog? The dog detected the drugs, he didn't need prompting. And if there aren't any drugs, then after the search reveals no drugs you're free to go - the dog's alert gives probable cause to search but it's not arrestable all by itself.


I trust dogs..I'm not so sure about people....

The dog doesn't testify in court that he alerted, the handler testifies in court that the dog alerted...and there is no standard quantifiable definition of 'alerted' that can be challenged by the defense, such as how many inches the dog's tail moved, etc., unlike breathalyzer or radar operators.
So 'subjective' is a fair criticism of the human factor in the use of dogs.

If you have a less than honorable cop with a dog, you have a cop who can introduce bogus PC...and at that point, who is to say that there won't be drugs in your trunk, even if they weren't there before you were stopped.

It may not happen to everyone, but with increased latitude to search, comes the opportunity for abuse.

Having said that, I still don't have a huge problem with the letter of this ruling...I'm all for the Constitution protecting the rights of even the guilty, but nothing says that crime should be made easier.
 
Whenever I have unused prescription painkillers, instead of throwing them away I like to grind them up and place them in an old salt-shaker. Then if someone annoys me I can sprinkle it on the running boards or bumpers of their vehicle, knowing that if they get near a police drug dog they’re in for an hour or two of trouble. This is especially useful if the person who annoys me is a teenager, as all our local schools participate in the D.A.R.E. program, and Officer Friendly is always around with his drug-sniffing dog to entertain and educate the kiddies.

I also like to take gunpowder from fireworks and sprinkle it on peoples luggage at airports.
 
Mycroft said:
Whenever I have unused prescription painkillers, instead of throwing them away I like to grind them up and place them in an old salt-shaker. Then if someone annoys me I can sprinkle it on the running boards or bumpers of their vehicle, knowing that if they get near a police drug dog they’re in for an hour or two of trouble. This is especially useful if the person who annoys me is a teenager, as all our local schools participate in the D.A.R.E. program, and Officer Friendly is always around with his drug-sniffing dog to entertain and educate the kiddies.

I also like to take gunpowder from fireworks and sprinkle it on peoples luggage at airports.

You jest, but didn't one survey of money in circulation turn up detectable levels of cocaine including bills from a police lieutenant's pocket?
 
Mycroft said:
Whenever I have unused prescription painkillers, instead of throwing them away I like to grind them up and place them in an old salt-shaker. Then if someone annoys me I can sprinkle it on the running boards or bumpers of their vehicle, knowing that if they get near a police drug dog they’re in for an hour or two of trouble. This is especially useful if the person who annoys me is a teenager, as all our local schools participate in the D.A.R.E. program, and Officer Friendly is always around with his drug-sniffing dog to entertain and educate the kiddies.

I also like to take gunpowder from fireworks and sprinkle it on peoples luggage at airports.

Jesting aside (assuming you were being facetious), things like this are semi effective forms of resistance. If everyone's money has traces of cocaine on it then the signifigance of one person's money having traces on it is nill.

If everyone's car alerts a drug dog, then it loses it's signifigance.

Of course doing things like this potentially screws over people who don't deserve it, but it can be an effective form of civil 'disobedience'.

Don't like the idea of drug sniffing dogs in your kid's school? Spend $5 for some weed and sprinkle it all over the place including in the school office.

Is there a public event where the police are expected to be using dogs to detect drugs? Show up before the event starts and plant traces all over the place.

For some real fun, rub some pot on your skin and then pass close by to the dog. The dog will alert, you will be searched and nothing found.

Assuming you smoke pot, make sure if your baggie includes seeds that you don't toss them in the trash, stick them in some dirt in public places.

Civil disobedience can be easy, fun and rewarding.
 
crimresearch said:
The dog doesn't testify in court that he alerted, the handler testifies in court that the dog alerted...and there is no standard quantifiable definition of 'alerted' that can be challenged by the defense, such as how many inches the dog's tail moved, etc., unlike breathalyzer or radar operators.

Yes, there is such a standard.

Problems like the one you just described have been thought up already by the law enforcement community. To prevent them, a standard of exactly how a dog should behave on an alert was drafted. Further, like Randi's challenge, it had to be a result not subject to interpretation - in other words, the "alert" signal has to be something that the dog would not occasionally do by himself as he's sniffing, so that the handler would not misidentify an alert response. This is, typically, sitting. A dog is led to walk along a line of luggage or the side of a vehicle, constantly sniffing, in a pattern - up and then down, as he works along the line. When the dog alerts, he sits - immediately and deliberately. He does not sniff anymore. He does not wag his tail or move his legs. He does absolutely nothing at all, until the handler commands him to break. This is a behavioral standard that the dog is trained to, and the dog is tested - he must do it the same way, every time, or he is not certified. Period.

After a hit, the handler will command the dog to break, and continue working around the line of luggage or the vehicle. Eventually, the handler brings the dog past the suspect item again, and if the dog alerts again, that is a confirmation that the dog does indeed catch a scent, and it is only then that the item is examined. If bad stuff is found, then the dog is rewarded (a toy or food treat, typically). If nothing is found, the dog is not rewarded.

The alert behavior standard is documented, and all a lawyer needs to do is request a copy of the appropriate file. Things like dashcams can also be obtained by the lawyer. If somebody wants to dispute whether the dog actually alerted or not, all one has to do is look at the documented standard.
 
Joshua, as noted, it is not necessarily the dog's behavior which is in question, it is the human's behavior. Supose an officer goes to court and says the dog "indicated" a suitcase and upon further inspection, it was found to contain drugs. How in the world can the defendant question the DOG, not the officer. IOW, the officer can say what ever he wants and the dog is not in a position to refute or support the officer's testimony. Worse, the defendant is unable to refute the officer's testimony.
 
Geez. Why dont they just rule that the constitution doesnt apply to automoblies.

Can they hold you while they wait for a police dog? The article i read didnt make that clear.
 
SezMe said:
Joshua, as noted, it is not necessarily the dog's behavior which is in question, it is the human's behavior. Supose an officer goes to court and says the dog "indicated" a suitcase and upon further inspection, it was found to contain drugs. How in the world can the defendant question the DOG, not the officer. IOW, the officer can say what ever he wants and the dog is not in a position to refute or support the officer's testimony. Worse, the defendant is unable to refute the officer's testimony.

I don't understand your example. If there really were drugs in the suitcase, what good would questioning the dog do? Are you alleging that the dog had a false positive on a suitcase that contained drugs? If you are trying to make an example of intrusiveness, then propose a situation where the police say that the dog indicated a suitcase and when the officers opened it they found no drugs but did find illegal weapons which were used as a basis for an arrest.

But in any case, Joshua Korosi's response are accurate and appear to me to be well reasoned. There is no mistaking an indication; dogs are usually trained to sit perfectly still.
 
SezMe said:
Joshua, as noted, it is not necessarily the dog's behavior which is in question, it is the human's behavior. Supose an officer goes to court and says the dog "indicated" a suitcase and upon further inspection, it was found to contain drugs. How in the world can the defendant question the DOG, not the officer. IOW, the officer can say what ever he wants and the dog is not in a position to refute or support the officer's testimony. Worse, the defendant is unable to refute the officer's testimony.

Dunno. How many searches would lead to this one case? Is it worth the bother? I somehow cannot see expensive resources (dogs and cops) spent on something that would be so unproductive.
 
Joshua Korosi said:
Yes, there is such a standard.

Problems like the one you just described have been thought up already by the law enforcement community. To prevent them, a standard of exactly how a dog should behave on an alert was drafted. Further, like Randi's challenge, it had to be a result not subject to interpretation - in other words, the "alert" signal has to be something that the dog would not occasionally do by himself as he's sniffing, so that the handler would not misidentify an alert response. This is, typically, sitting. A dog is led to walk along a line of luggage or the side of a vehicle, constantly sniffing, in a pattern - up and then down, as he works along the line. When the dog alerts, he sits - immediately and deliberately. He does not sniff anymore. He does not wag his tail or move his legs. He does absolutely nothing at all, until the handler commands him to break. This is a behavioral standard that the dog is trained to, and the dog is tested - he must do it the same way, every time, or he is not certified. Period.

The alert behavior standard is documented, and all a lawyer needs to do is request a copy of the appropriate file. Things like dashcams can also be obtained by the lawyer. If somebody wants to dispute whether the dog actually alerted or not, all one has to do is look at the documented standard.

Really? Then why did one professional law enforcement (not MWD) K9 handler testify under oath that:

"As the dog handler testified, an “alert” is scratching and biting at an object and a “cast” is temporarily stopping, giving part of object minute attention and then continuing with inspection."
United States v Rivas (157 F. 3d 364 (1998) Fifth Circuit

While another's sworn testimony was that an alert was:

"...when a dog jumped up on driver’s side window, which officer interpreted as an alert on the interior of the vehicle, gave officers probable cause to search the passenger compartment."
United States v Seals (987 F. 2d 1102 (1993) Fifth Circuit

And yet another LEO handler claims that an alert is when:
"...we were walking back through one of the apartment complex's. "Justice" stopped and threw his head up in the air."
While another officer FROM THE SAME SCHOOL relates that his dog's alert is:
" the dog put his nose on it and scratched."
http://asct-nationalk9.com/generic9.html

And a different LE source claims that an alert is:
"Upon location of one of these (five) controlled substances, (the dog) is trained to bite and paw at the source of the odor."
http://www.k9fleck.org/nlu04.htm

While the current California Law Enforcement standards and training requirements for K9 training states that an alert is ANY "recognized signal from the dog to the handler", and in their documentation on certification lists no record or test of any dogs ability to alert in the sitting still manner you claim is standard throughout law enforcement.

Also, the United States Police Canine Association gives no standard for an alert, other than:
"Alert" is the term which describes the dog's behavior when the dog detects the odor of drugs which it is trained to identify."
http://www.uspcak9.com/training/introsearchandseizure.shtml

And the New York State Municipal Police Training Council
in their K9 certification testing requirements, instead of using the sitting still alert that you claim is standard, relies on the officer to decide whether or not the dog has alerted:
"h) The handler must verbally notify the examiner to the dog's alert."
http://www.policek9.com/new_york_.html
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So it seems odd in the face of your claim that there is one single quantifiable standard for the definition of a K9 alert (as stipulated, just as standardized as radar, where 95MPH means 95MPH....not 'passive' or 'initial' or 'aggressive', or 'casting', or so forth...), that so many people in actual law enforcement or the courts don't seem to have used this single alert standard of the dog sitting still.

But please feel free to provide us with a link to a copy of this universal standard...
 
Ladewig said:
I don't understand your example. If there really were drugs in the suitcase, what good would questioning the dog do? Are you alleging that the dog had a false positive on a suitcase that contained drugs? If you are trying to make an example of intrusiveness, then propose a situation where the police say that the dog indicated a suitcase and when the officers opened it they found no drugs but did find illegal weapons which were used as a basis for an arrest.

But in any case, Joshua Korosi's response are accurate and appear to me to be well reasoned. There is no mistaking an indication; dogs are usually trained to sit perfectly still.

OK, I'll ask you for the same documentation, I asked Joshuah for.
I've taken the time and effort to support my point with documentation that scratching, biting, jumping, etc. are all legally allowed definitions of an 'alert'...please be good enough to do the same, and show me your evidence that they are not.
 
Tmy said:
Geez. Why dont they just rule that the constitution doesnt apply to automoblies.

Can they hold you while they wait for a police dog? The article i read didnt make that clear.

TMY you might want to do a little light reading on the Carroll Doctrine...cars are not houses, so the Constitution allows the police to treat them more like exigent circumstances...
in other words, in limited cases, they can proceed without waiting around for a warrant while the vehicle drives away...

The link I provided said dog sniffs 'during' a traffic stop...holding someone for NO reason while a dog is retrieved is still unlikely to fly.
Stalling the ticket writing process for a few minutes would be one thing...telling someone after the ticket is written that they cannot leave until the dog arrives would probably cross the line.
 
Ladewig said:
I don't understand your example. If there really were drugs in the suitcase, what good would questioning the dog do? Are you alleging that the dog had a false positive on a suitcase that contained drugs? If you are trying to make an example of intrusiveness, then propose a situation where the police say that the dog indicated a suitcase and when the officers opened it they found no drugs but did find illegal weapons which were used as a basis for an arrest.

But in any case, Joshua Korosi's response are accurate and appear to me to be well reasoned. There is no mistaking an indication; dogs are usually trained to sit perfectly still.

crimresearch said:
OK, I'll ask you for the same documentation, I asked Joshuah for.
I've taken the time and effort to support my point with documentation that scratching, biting, jumping, etc. are all legally allowed definitions of an 'alert'...please be good enough to do the same, and show me your evidence that they are not.

I was wrong to say that dogs are usually trained to sit as part of an alert. I still maintain that however the dog is trained (to sit or to paw and scratch) an alert is not as subjective as how much did a tail move. A dog trained to show an alert by sitting either sits or does not sit. The dog trained to show an alert by scratching either paws and scratches or does not paw and scratch.
 

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