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DP, EC, LI And Good Old Guns

Johnny Pneumatic

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J
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The History Channel had an interesting show on prison history last night but I hit upon a question that I don't understand why they did and still do things the way they do. Centuries ago people were hanged to death or whatever then in more recent times electric chairs and now lethal injections are used. Aren't we doing this the hard way? Guns. They are an amazing new technology that shoots a piece of metal at several times the speed of sound. The felon could have a gun pointed at his head, bam!, dead right away and pretty painless; it would happen to fast to notice. Why isn't this how they are and were finished off?
 
SkepticJ said:
The History Channel had an interesting show on prison history last night but I hit upon a question that I don't understand why they did and still do things the way they do. Centuries ago people were hanged to death or whatever then in more recent times electric chairs and now lethal injections are used. Aren't we doing this the hard way? Guns. They are an amazing new technology that shoots a piece of metal at several times the speed of sound. The felon could have a gun pointed at his head, bam!, dead right away and pretty painless; it would happen to fast to notice. Why isn't this how they are and were finished off?
Click to expand...

Hanging is actually the most foolproof method of instant, painless death we had. There are really two types of hanging, the type that kills you by suffocation, and the type that snaps your neck. If you see a trap door, the goal is to snap the neck causing instant death.

Pointing a gun at someones head point blank and pulling the trigger will not garuntee an instant death, strange as it may seem. Sure, it the majority of the cases it will, but what about the other poor saps? You'd need to use a very large caliber weapon, at which point things get a little too messy for people to deal with.
 
We seem to prefer to avoid mess and nasty twitching and jerking.
Unless I'm wrong, Arizona still gives those convicted of capital crimes the option of firing squad. There was such an incident within my memory, though I can't recall the fellow's name.
Proceedure was for the hooded convict to be sat down in a chair, and 5 marksmen fired high-powered rifles at a mark on his chest at the same time. I believe they used the old convention of issuing one blank, so that you couldn't be "sure" that your round killed the guy.
(You would know; blanks have no recoil)

China still executes with a pistol bullet to the head, and charges any surviving family for the bullet.

Decapitation fulfills the quick and painless part, but fails the messy test. Germany continued to use the guillotine up through WWII, and a highly efficient device it was. (compared to the French Revolution standard.)
 
Bikewer said:
We seem to prefer to avoid mess and nasty twitching and jerking.
Unless I'm wrong, Arizona still gives those convicted of capital crimes the option of firing squad. There was such an incident within my memory, though I can't recall the fellow's name.
Proceedure was for the hooded convict to be sat down in a chair, and 5 marksmen fired high-powered rifles at a mark on his chest at the same time. I believe they used the old convention of issuing one blank, so that you couldn't be "sure" that your round killed the guy.
(You would know; blanks have no recoil)

China still executes with a pistol bullet to the head, and charges any surviving family for the bullet.

Decapitation fulfills the quick and painless part, but fails the messy test. Germany continued to use the guillotine up through WWII, and a highly efficient device it was. (compared to the French Revolution standard.)
Click to expand...

I was under the impression that decapitation, while not producing any twitching or screaming (not much anyway) was not instant. I have seen a program on the French Revolution or the guillotine (my memory is likely a little messed up) that explained that it is possible to be concious for maybe up to half a minute after the execution, and as all the nerves connected to your body are severed, you wuld likely experience the most intense phantom pains possible (in addition to the pain from the cut).

They even mentioned a scientist that got executed and had his assistant (or such) help him with an experiment. The experiment consisted of the poor scientist blinking his eyes as long as he could, and the assistant recording this. A pretty messy thing to do, but the scientist managed to blink for several seconds...

I think these things were part of the reason the guillotine went out of fashion in France, but have no hard facts to back this up.

Don't know if there are any mention on this on the net (probably is), I'm working now, and can't steal too much time for this :D so someone else will have to do my homework for me...

Mosquito
 
An article about the the guillotine and the story you mentioned.

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_262.html

The end result being... maybe.

I suspect not doing gun to the head is as people mention:
1) Not as effective as you'd expect
2) Not pleasant for the executioner
3) Not really viewed as appropriate for legal executions.
 
Seems to me that sudden, total loss of blood pressure to the brain would mean pretty instantaneous unconsciousness; farm animals slaughtered by cutting the carotid drop like rocks.
But, I don't imagine anyone would care to experiment...
 
Bikewer said:
Seems to me that sudden, total loss of blood pressure to the brain would mean pretty instantaneous unconsciousness; farm animals slaughtered by cutting the carotid drop like rocks.
But, I don't imagine anyone would care to experiment...
Click to expand...

Hmm, first Aoidoi does my homework (thanks!), and basically reports that my sources (which I assume was the Discovery program mentioned in the article) are (most likely) factually wrong on important points. Then it concludes that maybe there is a basic truth in it anyway. One point lost, one gained.

Then you come along and present this information that suggests that the brain shuts off very fast (how long is "pretty instantaneous"? About two seconds (other memory-fact* I have, that the brain can operate about two seconds without bloodflow until unconscious)?) That seems to be one point lost. And this one seems more modern and easily verified, as we slaughter animals on a daily basis, this should be a fairly useful way of checking the capability of the brain to stay awake in this situation.

So what's a poor mosquito-brain supposed to think?

Mosquito

* Memory-fact - n. fact supported solely by memory of provider. See also fantasy .
 
I realize that one "zap" doesn't mean certain death, but how painful would electrocution be? Fairly neat, and wouldn't the synapses just be instantly overloaded?
 
That's the theory, at any rate. The first voltage surge is supposed to render the fellow unconscious, while a couple of subsequent zaps insure death.

We could always go to the Python-inspired 16-ton weight...
 
Bikewer said:
We could always go to the Python-inspired 16-ton weight...
Click to expand...
I'd probably go for The Meaning of Life choose your method of execution bit were it my execution. Or, I suppose, were I witnessing one. :D
 
How about a kind of microwave "oven" helmet that heats the brain to about 135 140 degrees in a couple of seconds thus causing death,(temp may need to go higher)
 
kedo1981 said:
How about a kind of microwave "oven" helmet that heats the brain to about 135 140 degrees in a couple of seconds thus causing death,(temp may need to go higher)
Click to expand...

Digging bits of skull out of nearby walls would be hard work.
 
Re: Re: DP, EC, LI And Good Old Guns

RussDill said:
Hanging is actually the most foolproof method of instant, painless death we had. There are really two types of hanging, the type that kills you by suffocation, and the type that snaps your neck. If you see a trap door, the goal is to snap the neck causing instant death.
Click to expand...

The type that snaps the neck is the only form of legal execution ever used in Canada. One reporter in Manitoba wrote a book about the executions he was required to witness. The title was something like "Watch the Rope" based on a bit of advice he was given by an old salt. The point is that if the rope is still, it's a 'good' execution. If the rope is twitching you should avoid or delay the rest of your 'witness' duties.

We've gone past this barbarism, and it will not return. Every sentence of death required a vote in the House, and those votes had failed for 20 years before the penalty was finally abolished. What were capital crimes have steadily decreased ever since.
 
While I don't particularly care for the DP, I have to wonder how humane it is to sentence someone to "life in jail w/o possibility of parole." It's effectively a death sentence carried out in as long a period as possible.

I mean, given a sufficient library I could probably live in a cell without going nuts, but the very concept of "you're never, ever getting out no matter what" seems pretty brutal. I'm of the tentative opinion that the prisoner should be able to choose in that situation.

While the DP doesn't appear to deter criminals, I don't think that the removal of the DP does either. Not sure if you meant to imply that, tedly, but the crime rate generally has far more to do with the economy than the penalties imposed. The crime rate in the US has generally been trending downward for decades, and I haven't seen anyone make a convincing statistical argument that any laws (or lack of laws) influences it significantly. If anyone has such a study, I'd be interested to see it.

On the subject of options for the DP, lethal injection seems pretty reasonable. Person goes to sleep, never wakes up. Good enough for Socrates (though he had to drink and walk).

Gas chamber seems... bad. I mean, you've got a conscious guy sitting in a room, knowing it's coming. Not sure how fast it is, but the smoke filling the room has gotta be rather horrific. In addition, there's some rather infamous events with poison gas that are not a real good idea to bring up. Seems like a lousy option.
 
Bikewer said:
I believe they used the old convention of issuing one blank, so that you couldn't be "sure" that your round killed the guy.
(You would know; blanks have no recoil)
Click to expand...
Perhaps they have less recoil, but how could they have no recoil?
 
How about constant Barney videos.

If it fails to kill they will choose anything as an alternative, including being eaten slowly by pigs.
 
As there is no projectile with a blank, the only mass being driven down the barrel is the burning powder gases, and little bits of wadding.

Although this provides some "theoretical" recoil, it's not sufficient to overcome the inertia of a rifle in the 8-pound range.

Not exactly the same with military weapons that use a barrel restrictor to build up sufficient gas pressure to operate the action.

In this case, the cycling of the action provides a certain amount of perceived recoil.
 
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