Does the Skeptics politically correct stance make the problem worse ?

[AOK Tiger]

Recently I was admonished (not nastily at all) by Dr Adequate and some other for inferring that people who hallucinate are mentally ill.

At the time I pretty much agreed that maybe I was being too harsh.

I have had a bit of a rethink.

I think we are being TOO nice. We are part of the problem by kowtowing to the psychic industry and not just calling a spade a spade.

I think this politically correct stance somewhat legitimises the industry and CERTAINLY lets the honest “psychics” to continue believing what they “see and hear” are legitimate psychic phenomena.

We should be STRIDENT in telling them NO.. what you “see and hear” IS a mental aberration.

You ARE mentally disturbed when you hallucinate and interpret those hallucinations as REAL.

If this was pushed heavily into the mainstream psychics would get the short shrift they deserve. People with genuine problems would seek and get help.

 

[Ed]

Recently I was admonished (not nastily at all) by Dr Adequate and some other for inferring that people who hallucinate are mentally ill.

At the time I pretty much agreed that maybe I was being too harsh.

I have had a bit of a rethink.

I think we are being TOO nice. We are part of the problem by kowtowing to the psychic industry and not just calling a spade a spade.

I think this politically correct stance somewhat legitimises the industry and CERTAINLY lets the honest “psychics” to continue believing what they “see and hear” are legitimate psychic phenomena.

We should be STRIDENT in telling them NO.. what you “see and hear” IS a mental aberration.

You ARE mentally disturbed when you hallucinate and interpret those hallucinations as REAL.

If this was pushed heavily into the mainstream psychics would get the short shrift they deserve. People with genuine problems would seek and get help.

I agree, you have to call a spade a spade. We tend to engage in the same kind of relativism that imbues politics when we allow for the possibility of gravity going up. Some things are in fact just BS and we should have the courage of our convictions to name them.

 

[geni]

Recently I was admonished (not nastily at all) by Dr Adequate and some other for inferring that people who hallucinate are mentally ill.

At the time I pretty much agreed that maybe I was being too harsh.

I have had a bit of a rethink.

I think we are being TOO nice. We are part of the problem by kowtowing to the psychic industry and not just calling a spade a spade.

I think this politically correct stance somewhat legitimises the industry and CERTAINLY lets the honest “psychics” to continue believing what they “see and hear” are legitimate psychic phenomena.

We should be STRIDENT in telling them NO.. what you “see and hear” IS a mental aberration.

You ARE mentally disturbed when you hallucinate and interpret those hallucinations as REAL.

Personaly I've never worked out how to deal with the genuinly mentaly ill

If this was pushed heavily into the mainstream psychics would get the short shrift they deserve. People with genuine problems would seek and get help. [/B]

But it won't get pushed into the mainstream. It will just be used to portray skeptics as big nasty people who call everyone who dissagrees with the mentaly ill. It strengthens the mediums fanbase since if they listen to you they hear things they don't want to hear on two levels rather than one.

 

[jmercer]

Recently I was admonished (not nastily at all) by Dr Adequate and some other for inferring that people who hallucinate are mentally ill.

At the time I pretty much agreed that maybe I was being too harsh.

I have had a bit of a rethink.

I think we are being TOO nice. We are part of the problem by kowtowing to the psychic industry and not just calling a spade a spade.

I think this politically correct stance somewhat legitimises the industry and CERTAINLY lets the honest “psychics” to continue believing what they “see and hear” are legitimate psychic phenomena.

We should be STRIDENT in telling them NO.. what you “see and hear” IS a mental aberration.

You ARE mentally disturbed when you hallucinate and interpret those hallucinations as REAL.

If this was pushed heavily into the mainstream psychics would get the short shrift they deserve. People with genuine problems would seek and get help.

Hmmm... well, I'm new to the forums, really haven't been involved in a lot of the nitty-gritty yet. But I'd still like to offer my opinion.

First off, a person can easily interpret an hallucination as real without being mentally disturbed. Some hallucinations are indistingushable from reality.

Here's a common one.

You're in your bedroom, half asleep when suddenly you realize that you're not alone. Over by the doorway is a dark figure, tall, standing perfectly still. Your adrenaline pumping, you slowly slide your hand out from under the covers... steel your nerves and prepare to leap out of bed as you reach for the light switch... click! Nothing's there. It must have been a shadow or something... you turn the light off uneasily, and look for the shape, but you don't see it. Just then, you hear a creak on the stairs...

That's a hallucination and you believe it - at least momentarily. Your mind - for whatever reason - took a random series of light and shadow and interpreted it as a figure standing motionless.

Mental aberration? Perhaps. We have an evolutionary history of looking for threats, so having the brain misfire and interpret something this way isn't too unreasonable. But mentally disturbed? No.

Then there are people who are very mildly bipolar or schizophrenic. They may occasionally encounter hallucinations that are apparently so realistic at times that they are indistingushable from reality. Yet these people are fully functional and sane by accepted standards.

And, of course, most people have experienced dreams that were so real that they felt like the actual events had transpired. One night my wife woke up angry at me and started yelling. I (waking up out of a deep sleep) was totally floored. I got her to calm down, and eventually we figured out that she'd dreamed (very realistically!) that we had an argument while lying in bed. She apparently woke up and continued the argument, convinced that I was lying there listening.

As far as being too PC goes... these people freak out when we ask them for proof, which is an oblique way of saying "Bull. We don't believe you; you're delusional. Either prove it or shut up."

I believe that if we respond more forcefully or bluntly (tempting as it may be), the message will be lost because they'll just point to what's being said and say "I told you so - they're really closeminded!".

Just my thoughts on it...

(Edited for grammar & spelling)

 

[SezMe]

[snip]
You ARE mentally disturbed when you hallucinate and interpret those hallucinations as REAL
[snip]

This is the only part I disagree with - I think you need to separate them.

Most (all?) people have had hallucinations. Have you heard or read Schemer's description of his hallucination during his marathon bike riding days? This brain activity is normal. Mostly.

The part you are right about is the interpretation of these hallucinations are being real or as being manifestations of "other dimensions" or some such crap. IOW, the illness is the inability to distinguish reality from fantasy.

The rest of your post is spot on.

 

[AOK Tiger]

Geni,

Excellent point but… WHY are we considered nasty because we tell the truth.

Is it because of YEARS of being too nice ? NO one is considered mean or nasty if they call someone an idiot for thinking the world is Flat !

The “psychic” industry is GROWING not shrinking.. maybe its time to take another tack.

(You could compare this to telling people they are too fat.. nasty.. yes.. but also in their own best interest to know this and do something about it)

Jmercer,

I think the key to being mentally aberrant is accepting the hallucination as some form of reality. I don’t mean for an instant I mean for the long term. We have been over this argument before and I accept that hallucination itself is not aberrant what you interpret it as can be.

Sezme,

I was trying to tie both together.. maybe grammatically I cocked it up. I think we can accept that hallucination itself may not be aberrant but accepting your hallucination as reality IS !

 

[Kopji]

Just be you.

DIAGNOSED mentally ill people are not going to be offended by much you say. (A lifetime of prejudice and mistreatment precedes you.)

It is the UNdiagnosed... who think they have Spiritual Authority or Power, who will want to destroy you.

 

[El Greco]

Cultural influences are very important. I don't know if I would had turned into an atheist had I been raised in another society, by another family. Getting rid of beliefs that have been instilled in you during childhood can be very difficult and has nothing to do with mental illness. For example, here in Greece the "evil eye" is a very common superstition. As a result, I know a lot of people who still believe in it while they are very skeptical and rational in every other aspect of their thinking, quickly dismissing as fraud anything that has to do with homeopathy, UFOs, astrology etc. It's because their granny was talking about the evil eye but had no idea about homeopathy.

 

[jmercer]

I'm going to keep this short, since I have a tendency to post looong, boring texts.

I kept thinking about this PC question last night, because I kinda felt both positive and negative about it. Then it occurred to me that what skeptics are trying to do is to educate people out of their irrational beliefs.

I don't think we'll have much success at that if we just tell them they're insane.

 

[Sharon]

Hi Aussie

I have friends on another forum who IMHO are showing signs of mental illness. I skipped around during disscussions and brought up info on schizophrenia and as you can imagine they truly believe they are not mentally ill but are having what they call 'spiritual awakenings'. So all the horrible voices and things they see, to them, is part of their 'test' to become more spiritual. What they agreed to as part of their life plan.

Part of me can understand why people choose to prefer it being a spiritual awakening rather than mental. There does 'seem' unfortunatley to be a slight stigma about being mentally ill.I know if I was on a thread and it was about voices/guides folk would say "and I'm not mentally ill before it gets suggested", as they knew I would tackfuly throw it into the disscussion. Yet when all said and done with the number of wires (don't know the correct word) we must have in our brain it strikes me as no wonder we have mental illness as there can be so much that can go wrong. I have had one or two moments myself but I'm not ashamed more grateful their IS a logical explanation for having Snow white or the Yorkshire ripper sat on my bed during my youth.

It will get worse. You only have to go on forums to see that people are putting post on there about their children who hear/see things. People take their children on spritual walks, I find it SO irresponsable. So the next generation already believe they are psychic/mediums/see angels and they are not 16 yet.

Sharon

 

[patnray]

I have to disagree with the statement that mentally ill people cannot tell their hallucinations are not real. Having worked in mental hospitals in my youth, I know that some mentally ill people were quite aware that the visions and voices that plagued them were not real. But they could not make them stop, and knowing they were not real was distressing for them.

 

[jambo372]

Why do sceptics insist on harassing these poor people when they have no evidence that they are hallucinating ?
Not to mention that in the vast majority of cases it will be none of their business.

 

[jmercer]

Great post patnray. I don't think that many people here have the experience to say what you did. I know that I didn't, and it gave me a new perspective on these folks.

I'd sure find it distressing if I heard voices and saw things that I knew weren't real - but couldn't stop or otherwise control.

 

[jmercer]

Why do sceptics insist on harassing these poor people when they have no evidence that they are hallucinating ?

And with that, you have refuted all the findings, knowledge and understanding that psychiatrics have brought to the modern world, Jambo372. I guess all those mental health professionals in the world are purblind credulous idiots that don't have a clue about what's really going on, according to your statement.

 

[plindboe]

We should call a spade a spade. But the thing is that hallucinations happen to healthy individuals as well. Hallucinations can indicate mental illness, but it's far from always the case.

But I guess it depends upon your definition of "illness". If you define the word as simply a temporary abnormal state, then perhaps I can understand your point. In my, and I believe most people's understanding of the word, "illness" is a condition that require treatment. Hallucinations are very common, and very rarely require any treatment, at least if you were to ask a doctor.

 

[jmercer]

Jmercer,

I think the key to being mentally aberrant is accepting the hallucination as some form of reality. I don’t mean for an instant I mean for the long term. We have been over this argument before and I accept that hallucination itself is not aberrant what you interpret it as can be.

My apologies for not responding sooner. When I finally got back to the thread, it was several messages deep and I didn't realize that you'd replied to my comment.

My point is this - it's possible to have a one-time hallucination that is so realistic as to be indistinguishable from reality. Some of these visions can have a tremendous psychological and/or emotional impact on a person, and you have to take that into account as well.

Such an individual is left with a serious dilemma - do they believe their own senses, memories and feelings, or do they believe what other people tell them about an experience that they didn't witness or share in any way? (And there will probably be persons reinforcing the "woo" view as well as those presenting a skeptical view while this debate is going on.)

I don't think that someone has to be mentally aberrant to sincerely believe that they had a unique, real (but apparently inexplicable) experience that others disbelieve in. (Although that's probably the exception, rather than the norm.) The fact that it's a hallucination is irrelevant because the individual in question believes that it was a real experience.

When you get right down to it, any hallucination is a valid experience in the sense that it happened. It may not exist anywhere but in that persons mind, but it still happened. But I do agree - someone who suspends their credulity on a regular basis is mentally aberrant.

 

[Dr Adequate]

Aussie Thinker: I was not being "PC", merely accurate. It is not I who have been trying, for political or other reasons to change the meaning of "mentally ill". That would be you. Mental illness is not synonymous with hallucination. As my poll showed, lots of perfectly sane posters hallucinate --- a majority who answered the poll, although this is of course a self-selecting sample. I had another hypnagogic hallucination last night, by the way. Am I nuts?

Now you didn't come roaring onto that thread and tell us we were all mentally ill. Why not? Yet you're happy to stick that label on woowoos when they "see things". Your choice of who to call mentally ill... on the basis of exactly the same symptoms... seems to depend on whether they agree with you about the paranormal.

Now, besides the question of which of us is right about the meaning of "mentally ill" (me) we might still ask which sort of rhetoric is more useful --- your condemnation of people who "see things" as "mentally ill", or my tactful explanations of how it is common to hallucinate without being mentally ill?

Hey, there's a question which totally answers itself. Not only is my answer true, and supported by psychology textbooks, but it's going to meet with a lot less resistance.

When people are genuinely mentally ill, as with Dennis44, it's right to tell them so... tactfully... and urge them to seek help. As I did. (Fortunately, he was already being treated for schizophrenia --- confirming my diagnosis, BTW). But even in this case, Aussie Thinker, your usual conversational gambit of shouting at him in capitals that he's nuts would have achieved little.

And this confuses me about your treatment of people you say are mentally ill. If you really thought they were, would you not rather treat them with kindness and tact in their misfortune? If you're sincere, then your hobby is bullying sick people who've done nothing to you.

Mental illness is a tragic thing. You seem to be confusing it with any little aberation of the mind. I saw an old thread --- I can't find the reference --- where the subject was being discussed: how do we tell if they're mentally ill. Cleopatra, bless her, said something like: "if talking to them givves you feel a heavy sad feeling in the pit of your stomach that won't go away". She's right. Real mental illness is terrible and pitiful, and I can only suppose that someone who can discourse so glibly and inaccurately on the subject has never come face to face with it.

 

[plindboe]

Nice post, Dr.A.

 

[AOK Tiger]

DR A,

Aussie Thinker: I was not being "PC", merely accurate. It is not I who have been trying, for political or other reasons to change the meaning of "mentally ill". That would be you. Mental illness is not synonymous with hallucination. As my poll showed, lots of perfectly sane posters hallucinate --- a majority who answered the poll, although this is of course a self-selecting sample. I had another hypnagogic hallucination last night, by the way. Am I nuts?

I think we established in the other thread (and reiterated in this one) that the problem is with the INTEPRETATION (I know you love my use of caps) of the hallucination.

Sane rational people eventually determine their hallucination is NOT reality.

(BTW.. I still think ANY hallucination is some form of mental aberration but the point is pretty moot for this argument)

Now you didn't come roaring onto that thread and tell us we were all mentally ill. Why not? Yet you're happy to stick that label on woowoos when they "see things". Your choice of who to call mentally ill... on the basis of exactly the same symptoms... seems to depend on whether they agree with you about the paranormal.

To be honest you are partly right there… When their interpretation of their hallucination does not gel with reality and there is NO supporting physical corroborating evidence then they are either mentally ill or just plain stupid to continue believing.

Now, besides the question of which of us is right about the meaning of "mentally ill" (me) we might still ask which sort of rhetoric is more useful --- your condemnation of people who "see things" as "mentally ill", or my tactful explanations of how it is common to hallucinate without being mentally ill?

I ONLY condemn those who foist their ridiculous interpretation of their hallucination off as “psychic phenomena”.

Will you not concede that hallucinating IS not a normal mental process ? Or is it normal to see something that does not exist ?

Hey, there's a question which totally answers itself. Not only is my answer true, and supported by psychology textbooks, but it's going to meet with a lot less resistance.

Reread Sharons post and tell me if you cannot see the dangers of NOT defining these people as mentally ill and treating them as such.

When people are genuinely mentally ill, as with Dennis44, it's right to tell them so... tactfully... and urge them to seek help. As I did. (Fortunately, he was already being treated for schizophrenia --- confirming my diagnosis, BTW). But even in this case, Aussie Thinker, your usual conversational gambit of shouting at him in capitals that he's nuts would have achieved little.

I have had long and VERY (gotta love the caps) polite conversations with “honest psychics” outlining the mundane explanations for their “abilities”. I have NO problem explaining that they may have a problem separating fantasy from reality.

And this confuses me about your treatment of people you say are mentally ill. If you really thought they were, would you not rather treat them with kindness and tact in their misfortune? If you're sincere, then your hobby is bullying sick people who've done nothing to you.

Of course.. I didn’t ever say we have to be nasty (I may have used the words “short shrift” but I really meant that for the charlatans and their toadies). The trouble is calling something a mental aberration or illness is IMMEDIATELY considered nasty.

Mental illness is a tragic thing. You seem to be confusing it with any little aberation of the mind. I saw an old thread --- I can't find the reference --- where the subject was being discussed: how do we tell if they're mentally ill. Cleopatra, bless her, said something like: "if talking to them givves you feel a heavy sad feeling in the pit of your stomach that won't go away". She's right. Real mental illness is terrible and pitiful, and I can only suppose that someone who can discourse so glibly and inaccurately on the subject has never come face to face with it.

I guess its all a matter of degrees. An “ill” body is one which does not behave as it is supposed to. An “ill” mind is the same thing. A mind that “sees” things that do not exist and interprets them as reality (after examining other evidence) is ill.

 

[Sharon]

I admit I have never much bothered about the believers who have positive hallucinations, suppose I haven't got the bottle, which I assume was the point of Aussies post?. Lots see angels/Jesus/Lady Diana, you know, non harmful things that positively interact/spread the word/live their life by their messages. So I see what Aussie means here on this, we just leave it alone, no harm done, no voice from God saying slay your children. It's so hard mind you. From my experience these people just 'know' that these visions are real. On forums they tend to preach/spread the word.I suppose no harm done untill these visions/sightings 'may' turn nasty?

Although I admitt I NEVER have the bottle to call a spade a spade and get involved the with the threads that 'know' in a positive/spreading love sense I just tend to poke my nose in with alternative info on the thread's that ask...I get x,y,z it scared me what do you think? And children, I have a huge weakness when they involve children, can't stand it

Sharon