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Does materialism preclude spirituality?

billydkid said:
I don't think it does. Do you?
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Well, it's hard to say because you have not defined your terms. I'll use wikipedia:

Materialism: In philosophy, materialism is that form of physicalism which holds that the only thing that can truly be said to exist is matter; that fundamentally, all things are composed of material and all phenomena are the result of material interactions; that matter is the only substance.

Spirituality: Spirituality, in a narrow sense, concerns itself with matters of the spirit. The spiritual, involving (as it may) perceived eternal verities regarding humankind's ultimate nature, often contrasts with the temporal, with the material, or with the worldly.

Bolding mine. They sure do seem to contradict each other.
 
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Yes, unless you choose to be an illogical dualist.

PS. Mercutio knew I'd say that.
 
Hard to tell how our primitive ancestors thought. Certainly belief in spirits, in the form of some sort of animism, must have appeared quite early.

Our ancestors (by which I mean the first modern humans, Homo Sapiens) would have been confronted with many phenomena that they could not explain, and the thought that these things were being caused by some supernatural agency would have been unavoidable.
 
I know some people who scream at the top of their lungs how incredibly "spiritual" they are. I often find them rather shallow, self-centered and uninterested in the deepest questions and not really in touch with the nature and the universe. I think I'm more spiritual then them.

I once watched some show called "The National Spirituality Test" where people were asked wether they believed in some rather nonsensical things. The New Agers apperently scored very high, while the Infidels (a bunch of atheists and skeptics) very low, surprisingly enough. And I always thought that spirituality dealt with the metaphysical and unmeasureable, and I am supposed to believe a stupid quiz can accurately measure "spirituality" itself? What a proposterous concept. I would have scored very low on questions about Ouija boards and whether dolphins are psychic, but I still consider myself fairly spiritual so I don't think it can be so easily measured.

I agree that that it sure seems like materialism and spirituality contradict eachother. But spirituality is not constrained by such closedminded logic. Therefore materialism and spirituality do not preclude eachother. How is that possible? No one knows. It's a mystery.
 
Earthborn said:
I agree that that it sure seems like materialism and spirituality contradict eachother. But spirituality is not constrained by such closedminded logic. Therefore materialism and spirituality do not preclude eachother. How is that possible? No one knows. It's a mystery.
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You don't want them to contradict each other, so you claim spirituality is not restricted to logic (?) and then state that it's a mystery why this is the case?

Um, what?
 
Well, I should have used a different word than spirituality. Transcendence, I guess would work. I do mean the experience that people refer to as spirituality, however I don't believe there is anything immaterial about the experience and I also don't think believing the experience is comprised of actions and reactions and such diminishes the significance of it. I think that people hold onto this idea spiritual experience lies outside the realm of the physical plane and that action and reaction or mechanisms do not play a part. I would hold that anything that happens, happens by some mechanism or other and that it is not necessary to suppose that spiritual experiences happen by some other set of rules than the ones under which the universe operates or, rather, by no rules at all in order to believe they are profoundly meaningful. Their meaningfulness does not lie in their mysteriousness, per se'.
 
Cosmo said:
Well, it's hard to say because you have not defined your terms. I'll use wikipedia:

Materialism: In philosophy, materialism is that form of physicalism which holds that the only thing that can truly be said to exist is matter; that fundamentally, all things are composed of material and all phenomena are the result of material interactions; that matter is the only substance.

Spirituality: Spirituality, in a narrow sense, concerns itself with matters of the spirit. The spiritual, involving (as it may) perceived eternal verities regarding humankind's ultimate nature, often contrasts with the temporal, with the material, or with the worldly.

Bolding mine. They sure do seem to contradict each other.
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Yes, they do, but I think it mainly involves a misunderstanding of the nature of spiritual experience. It is not necessary to attribute spiritual experience to the supernatural nor to suppose that not doing so diminishes the significance of such experiences.
 
You keep referencing "spiritual experiences". Could you perhaps give an example of one?
 
Cosmo said:
You keep referencing "spiritual experiences". Could you perhaps give an example of one?
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If I have had spiritual experiences it has been in the long past. I am not referring to seeing things or speaking with god or something like that. We are talking about a way of feeling. A sense of the rightness in all things and the connectness of all things. That experience is transcendent relative to the typical daily way of feeling. I have felt that way only very rarely and only in the distant past. Now this may not be what Jerry Falwell or a yogi or a zen master means by a spiritual experience, but it is what I take it to mean and I would suppose there are varying degrees of this sort of experience just like there are varying degrees of almost every other kind of experience. I don't believe that attributing such an experience to changes in brain chemistry diminishes the significance of such an experience. I believe you can induce the experience by deliberately altering the brains chemistry - say with magic mushrooms and such - and the experience remains just as significant as if someone had meditated or prayed to Allah for days on end to get it.
 
I have to add, when I talk about the having a sense of the rightness in all things, that does not mean that one believes all things right and as they should be in a mundane sense. Sometime, I have the feeling that how could anyone live in such a world with so many horrible things happening in it. At any given moment millions are suffering terribly, people are pouring gasoline on puppies and lighting it and every other awful thing you can imagine. But I believe - and this is just thinking about it - that from a "transcendant" or "spiritual" perspective you can feel the rightness in all things, but still recognize the wrongness and still feel compelled to change it. In fact, I believe the people most inclined to bring about those sorts of changes or those people who can sense the rightness in all things and find peace in the midst of the chaos and horror. I wish I were one of those people.

I think of it as a way to avoid being debilitated by hopelessness. I think of it as a way to be able to see the possibly of the goodness than can be and by seeing that possibility one is energized to actually do the things that can bring about change for the better. Now, like I say, this is just me thinking about it. I would love to be able to experience that sort of transcendence and be able to release the greatness that I believe all of us have the potential within us to have. There, that's my sermon.
 
billydkid said:
Yes, they do, but I think it mainly involves a misunderstanding of the nature of spiritual experience. It is not necessary to attribute spiritual experience to the supernatural nor to suppose that not doing so diminishes the significance of such experiences.
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I agree perception is perception but some are valid and some are not.
 
I like that perceptive comment .... :)

Do you think we can ever share my perception of, say, green? Or of course for that matter, anything else?
 
hammegk said:
I like that perceptive comment .... :)

Do you think we can ever share my perception of, say, green? Or of course for that matter, anything else?
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Our perceptions are close enough that we are both able to generally agree on what is green and what is not.

If you perceive green differently than me, what does it matter anyway?
 
"Spirituality" is a remnant of a world view that preceded the telescope, the microscope, plate tectonics, Darwin, even Copernicus. Before electrodes, CAT or PET scans, before the discovery of neurotransmitters. "Spirituality" is the experiential equivalent of "heere be dragones"; it should come as no surprise that we have difficulty agreeing on "spiritual" experiences. There are no referents to point to; for hammegk's "green", we have any number of things in the real world that define it. Hammy learned the word without anybody who taught him having access to "his perception" nor he of theirs; the things in the real world defined his, my, and your "green". But "spiritual"?

What is worse, the things that used to be so amazingly incredible that they deserved to be called "heavenly", "angelic", or "spiritual", have long since been eclipsed by, say, the Hubble's deep-field pictures. The "miraculous" cure of an individual is dwarfed by the thousands of iron lungs no longer needed because of a vaccine for polio. The "divine" story of where people came from--reaching back an unthinkable several thousand years--has been overtaken by fossil finds and dna evidence that tells a far more marvelous story.

No, I am not a "spiritual" person. I can't think that small any more.
 
Mercutio said:
No, I am not a "spiritual" person. I can't think that small any more.
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That statement is such a breath of fresh, clean air!
Would more skepticks expressed how liberating it is to be done with all the superstitions that hold people in denial: reacting rather than creatively responding. Affirmation of life comes in accepting reality, not fleeing to fantasies.
Awareness, Compassion, and Freedom are obstructed by metaphysical fantasies that deny us the joy of being natural.

The Platonic Ideals not only limit the creative freedom of mind, they encase our hearts in supposed-to-bes that don't permit us to unconditionally affirm ourselves and our lives.

Some Christians say, "Open your heart and you will see Jesus."

Open your heart and you will see through Jesus!
 
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