Doctor's shouldn't report gun shot victims? Discuss!

[chran]

So, last night we had a shooting in Copenhagen - the 13th incident in the last 3 months (Source). This is pretty unusual, and the police think it's gang-related and are thinking of ways to stop it before it gets further out of control.

But that's not what I want to talk about - I want to talk about this article.

It says that two men sought treatment last night at Rigshospitalet for gun shot wounds, probably from last night's shoot-out and the doctors there called the police.

Now, the head of The Danish Medical Association's Ethical Committee comes out and says they shouldn't have done that - that criminals also deserve medical attention, and that stuff like this could lead to people not going for medical attention in the future. He goes on to say that if the doctors have a clear suspicion that the guy they're operating on, will go right out and "plug 27 others" (his words(!)), they have a duty to report, but if they don't, they shouldn't.

So, a big part of the plot in almost every American action-movie is that the main character can't go to the hospital, because they'll call the police. Now, far be it for me to base my knowledge on American society on movies, but is this true? I mean, all doctors "swear" the same Hippocratic oath, right?

What do you guys think? Should doctors report gun shot wounds? I actually feel much the same way as the ethics-guy. If the guy doesn't pose an immediate risk, patch him up and let him go home. How someone can determine "immediate risk", I don't know.

On the other hand, I think it's perfectly fine for doctors to call the police if a child shows clear sign of abuse.

 

[BPSCG]

Rocky burst in and grinning a grin,
He said, "Danny boy this is a showdown,"
But Daniel was hot, he drew first and shot,
And Rocky collapsed in the corner.

Now the doctor came in stinking of gin,
And proceeded to lie on the table.
He said Rocky you met your match,
And Rocky said, "Doc it's only a scratch,
And I'll be better, I'll be better, doc, as soon as I am able."

No word on whether or not the doctor called the cops on Rocky.

 

[tkingdoll]

The hippocratic oath is not mandatory (at least, not in the UK), but as a gunshot victim is a victim and not a perpetrator, it's difficult to see on what grounds you would "report them". I mean, being shot is not a crime.

However, shooting someone is. So I guess it comes down to whether or not the doctor should report a crime even if the victim does not want the crime reported. But you aren't reporting the victim, you're reporting the crime, in the same way as the child abuse you mentioned. So I would say yes, they should report the crime and if the police want to come and interview the victim, then that's for the police to decide.

 

[rwguinn]

Yeah, BPSCG--
but that was a British rendition of their vision of American society.

As far as calling the Police goes:
Doctors are not criminologists, nor are they lawyers.
They cannot determine what happened--they can only treat the symptoms. In Copenhagen, from what little I know of firearms laws over there, a gunshot wound=something illlegal has occurred.
In the US, in most cases, gunshot wound=something illegal has occurred.
In other words, some law has been broken, and any good citizen is required to report it--ethically, if not by law.
So what is the problem?

 

[Boo]

Doctors, Paramedics and other medical personnel are required by law to report injuries or medical complaints that may be related to possible criminal activity. This includes but is not limited to; gun shot wounds, stab wounds, injuries consistent with abuse and/or battery, illicit drug use/intoxication, overdose and self inflicted injuries.


Whether or not they do is often dependant on the individual and the provider.



Boo

 

[chran]

I understand your sentiments, I really do - but I don't think doctors are obligated to report crimes. I know social workers are, if they suspect abuse in a home, but I don't know about doctors.

Either way, there is the thing about doctors being neutral. They can't divulge medical history for example, so I think there is a definite sense of trust between a doctor and his patients. And like the ethics-guy said - I'd rather that a criminal get medical attention, than him dying in a ditch somewhere.

 

[Fnord]

I understand your sentiments, I really do - but I don't think doctors are obligated to report crimes. I know social workers are, if they suspect abuse in a home, but I don't know about doctors.

Either way, there is the thing about doctors being neutral. They can't divulge medical history for example, so I think there is a definite sense of trust between a doctor and his patients. And like the ethics-guy said - I'd rather that a criminal get medical attention, than him dying in a ditch somewhere.

California law requires that doctors report injuries resulting from suspected child, elder, or domestic abuse; firearms and hand weapons, and illnesses resulting from pesticide exposure.

In Canada, the Mandatory Gunshot Wound Reporting Act, 2005, which went into force in September, creates a requirement for public hospitals to report gunshot wounds of patients who present at the facility.

"Under the Act, any facility identified by the Act must orally report to the local police authorities (municipal or regional police force, or local Ontario Provincial Police detachment):

• The fact that a person is being treated for a gunshot wound; <LI class=articlebody>The person’s name, if known; and
• The name and location of the facility.

This report must be made as soon as it is reasonably practical to do so without interfering with the person’s treatment or disrupting the regular activities of the facility."

It has nothing to do with neutrality, and it has everything to do with protecting the public. The attending physician(s) do not have to assume that a crime has been committed. They only have to provide the information to the police, who are the ones to make the determination of a crime could have been committed.

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

California law requires that doctors report injuries resulting from suspected child, elder, or domestic abuse; firearms and hand weapons, and illnesses resulting from pesticide exposure.

In Canada, the Mandatory Gunshot Wound Reporting Act, 2005, which went into force in September, creates a requirement for public hospitals to report gunshot wounds of patients who present at the facility.





It has nothing to do with neutrality, and it has everything to do with protecting the public. The attending physician(s) do not have to assume that a crime has been committed. They only have to provide the information to the police, who are the ones to make the determination of a crime could have been committed.

I know Ohio is the same in this regard.

 

[Fnord]

After a little digging, I found that depending on the state, a physician in America is already required to report to the appropriate authority:

- All pesticide-related illnesses or injuries.

- Any participant in a legal match involving kickboxing, boxing, or mixed martial arts, who is determined to be unfit to proceed.

- Any person whom the physician believes to have been injured in a match involving kickboxing, boxing, or mixed martial arts, whether the match was legal or otherwise.

- Any abortion (some states require only those abortions performed on a minor).

- Any accepted patient referral.

- Any adverse incident in any office maintained by a physician.

- Any adverse reaction to a vaccine.

- Any case of communicable and occupational disease such as tuberculosis, Reye's syndrome, and cancer (mesothelioma, etc.).

- Any confirmed, positive test results for a controlled substance.

- Any death and its circumstances, including death as a result of abuse, neglect, or exploitation.

- Any failure of a hospital to keep required records of hospital transfers.

- Any injury from discharge of gun or other violent act.

- Any patient whose driving may be impaired for mental or physical reasons.

- Any person who has a moderate-to-severe brain or spinal cord injury.

- Any person with a sexually transmissible disease, including HIV or AIDS.

- Any prescription for lethal or potentially lethal medication.

- Any rape or sexual assault.

- Any second- or third-degree burn affecting over 5% of the body.

- Any suspected non-accidental injuries, malnourishment, physical neglect, sexual abuse, or other deprivation with intent to cause or allow injury or death of minor child or unborn child.

- Any victim of a motor vehicle accident whose blood alcohol exceeds legal limits.

- Any vulnerable adult who has been abused, neglected, or exploited

- Any work-related injury.

- The history, condition, treatment, dates and costs of treatment for any person making a claim for personal injury protection insurance benefits.

 

[Sir Robin Goodfellow]

In Saskatchewan, all firearms injuries must be reported to the police. I guess the reasoning is that if someone has been shot, a crime has occurred, and should be investigated.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

California law requires that doctors report injuries resulting from suspected child, elder, or domestic abuse; firearms and hand weapons, and illnesses resulting from pesticide exposure.

In Canada, the Mandatory Gunshot Wound Reporting Act, 2005, which went into force in September, creates a requirement for public hospitals to report gunshot wounds of patients who present at the facility.

You have the right act but it's an Ontario statute and it only applies to public hospitals in Ontario. Note, too, that it does not apply to physicians outside of public hospitals or private hospitals

It has nothing to do with neutrality, and it has everything to do with protecting the public. The attending physician(s) do not have to assume that a crime has been committed. They only have to provide the information to the police, who are the ones to make the determination of a crime could have been committed.

Yes.

 

[Beerina]

Now, the head of The Danish Medical Association's Ethical Committee comes out and says they shouldn't have done that - that criminals also deserve medical attention, and that stuff like this could lead to people not going for medical attention in the future.

Good. Let fear of dying from not getting medical attention be something to hold over the heads of criminals. "Go in and get healed, and arrested. Or die."

I'm fine with that. I heartily encourage anyone who wants to get elected with the alternative viewpoint to proclaim it loudly as part of their platform.

 

[NobbyNobbs]

So, a big part of the plot in almost every American action-movie is that the main character can't go to the hospital, because they'll call the police. Now, far be it for me to base my knowledge on American society on movies, but is this true? I mean, all doctors "swear" the same Hippocratic oath, right?

I don't see the problem. Reporting the possibility of a crime does not preclude them from treating the patient. I don't know of any law that says, "Not only must you report a gunshot victim, but you can't treat his wounds until the police show up."

Child care providers and teachers are required to report the possibility of child abuse if there is any indication that leads them to suspect such a thing as happened. This isn't any different.

 

[Fnord]

A license to practice medicine always carries with it certain legal and civil responsibilities, as well as medical ones.

 

[fuelair]

So, last night we had a shooting in Copenhagen - the 13th incident in the last 3 months (Source). This is pretty unusual, and the police think it's gang-related and are thinking of ways to stop it before it gets further out of control.

But that's not what I want to talk about - I want to talk about this article.

It says that two men sought treatment last night at Rigshospitalet for gun shot wounds, probably from last night's shoot-out and the doctors there called the police.

Now, the head of The Danish Medical Association's Ethical Committee comes out and says they shouldn't have done that - that criminals also deserve medical attention, and that stuff like this could lead to people not going for medical attention in the future. He goes on to say that if the doctors have a clear suspicion that the guy they're operating on, will go right out and "plug 27 others" (his words(!)), they have a duty to report, but if they don't, they shouldn't.

So, a big part of the plot in almost every American action-movie is that the main character can't go to the hospital, because they'll call the police. Now, far be it for me to base my knowledge on American society on movies, but is this true? I mean, all doctors "swear" the same Hippocratic oath, right?

What do you guys think? Should doctors report gun shot wounds? I actually feel much the same way as the ethics-guy. If the guy doesn't pose an immediate risk, patch him up and let him go home. How someone can determine "immediate risk", I don't know.

On the other hand, I think it's perfectly fine for doctors to call the police if a child shows clear sign of abuse.

Yes, they should report them.

 

[fuelair]

I understand your sentiments, I really do - but I don't think doctors are obligated to report crimes. I know social workers are, if they suspect abuse in a home, but I don't know about doctors.

Either way, there is the thing about doctors being neutral. They can't divulge medical history for example, so I think there is a definite sense of trust between a doctor and his patients. And like the ethics-guy said - I'd rather that a criminal get medical attention, than him dying in a ditch somewhere.

Interestingly, I prefer that the criminal be caught or found. And I am totally unconcerned with the criminal if gunshots are involved - they endanger real people.

 

[rwguinn]

Case in Point, from Fort Worth, Today.
Guy was obviously not a threat--he was shot in the back. Just patch him up and let him go, why not?

Except he was apparently the instigator of the whole shebang...

 

[Hamradioguy]

In my limited experience (I worked in the civilian side of the State Public Safety Department but interacted with law enforcement types daily) people with all but very minor gunshot, knife, blunt instrument injuries seek medical intervention and sooner rather than later. Those injured as a result of criminal activity may not want the authorities involved, but if they're hurting enough they'll head for a doctor or hospital. The bad guy hiding out somewhere to recover after his buddies dig the bullet out of his arm is pretty much the stuff of movies and cheap crime novels.

 

[Babylon Sister]

Several years ago my father nearly blew his thumb off while setting shotgun shell traps to the kill moles that were invading his lawn. (I don't know if these types of traps are illegal, but their use is certainly frowned upon.) His thumb was hurt badly enough to require and visit to the ER. Dad was very surprised when the Dr. told him the law required him report the injury to the police since it was a gunshot wound. The cops came, questioned my Dad, told him he was a dumbsheet for being so stupid and let him go.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

I don't think they should be required to report them. I think everyone, no matter what they have or haven't done, should be able to seek medical attention without fear of the law. They're still victims.