Do we live in a Patriarchy? What is that?

[pharphis]

I've argued a bunch on patriarchy and related topics quite a bit over the years and I am wondering what this forum considers to be "the patriarchy" if you believe we live in one, what good or bad or neutral results come from this, and if it is possible to change this to some better alternative.

I ask in part because every time I talk to feminists regarding patriarchy I can't help but feel that it is a motte-and-bailey switch, where the easily defended position is "men make up a disproportionate amount of positions of power" ie government, CEOs, etc.

The often-withheld (but also quite often openly admitted) position is that patriarchy not only is this, but it is the general valuing of men and/or empowerment of men at the oppression and/or expense of women.

I think there could plausibly be an element of truth to this, though I personally see many problems with this idea and don't this it accurately reflects reality. I can go into more detail later.

There is another point I'd like to make, though, and that the patriarchy theory comes off identical to what I'm going to call the Jewiarchy, for convenience. Jews make up a disproportionate fraction of positions of power, and the alt-right (and older groups) see this as a kind of conspiracy theory where Jews have specific politics that oppress/neglect non-Jews in order to favor Jews (or globalism or something else, it depends on the group I guess).

Is there a reasonable difference between these theories? Do they have predictive power? What are the predictions that can be made to test these theories?

 

[Lukraak_Sisser]

A simple, yet prevalent, example.

Me and my wife are looking for a new car.
I care nothing for cars, whereas she has a very specific range of wishes it should adhere to due to her work.
So, she is the one asking the questions, measuring etc.

Yet in half the dealerships the dealer kept answering her questions by addressing me and talking to me and basically ignoring her.
Something similar happened when applying for a mortgage, or when people call us about financial decisions.

My mother in law had a similar experience. She worked as a financial consultant. When a single less competent colleague is promoted over you, that could be a coincidence. When it happens six times in a row it isn't.

In parts of the western culture this is getting less, but full equality isn't anywhere near yet. Imagine the chances a female presidential candidate would have had with the exact same personality, money and attitudes of Trump in the US.

 

[dann]

Imagine the chances a female presidential candidate would have had with the exact same personality, money and attitudes of Trump in the US.

The exact same is hard to find, but if we ignore the money, how about Sarah Palin 2020?!

 

[PhantomWolf]

Talk to any female who has worked in Tech Support and ask her if there is a general valuing of men at the expense of women in her job.

 

[angrysoba]

Talk to any female who has worked in Tech Support...

Why would I want to do that?

Ha ha! Just kidding.

Now, I did recently watch an amusing video on a British politics show in which a gay man was arguing that men have too much power and that maybe women should get the chance for a change...

Another guest on the programme was Michael Portillo who pointed out that he was a member of the British cabinet who had to give full support to his leader, Margaret Thatcher, who was Prime Minister at the time, and that the current Prime Minister is also a woman, and that she is in a coalition government with a party whose leader is also a woman, and that in Scotland, the First Minister is also a woman, and the leaders of the two main parties in opposition to her are also women. And that furthermore, the head of state in the United Kingdom is also a woman - the Queen.

During this listing of the most powerful people in British politics and how all of them are women, the guy who had started this off was rolling his eyes and shaking his head.

It was funny!

 

[Information Analyst]

A simple, yet prevalent, example.

Me and my wife are looking for a new car.
I care nothing for cars, whereas she has a very specific range of wishes it should adhere to due to her work.
So, she is the one asking the questions, measuring etc.

Yet in half the dealerships the dealer kept answering her questions by addressing me and talking to me and basically ignoring her.

Yeah, my wife and I get that when I go with her to pick up a car she's hiring, even when it's established that she's the sole driver (because I don't).

 

[theprestige]

Yeah, my wife and I get that when I go with her to pick up a car she's hiring, even when it's established that she's the sole driver (because I don't).

My wife and I never get that. Bought a car a couple months ago. The salesman(!) engaged my wife directly on every point she raised.

Renting a car, my wife always handles the arrangements. When we get to the counter, the clerks always engage directly with her to complete the rental process. The only time I get pulled into the conversation is when it's time to add me to the approved driver list.

 

[Distracted1]

A simple, yet prevalent, example.

Me and my wife are looking for a new car.
I care nothing for cars, whereas she has a very specific range of wishes it should adhere to due to her work.
So, she is the one asking the questions, measuring etc.

Yet in half the dealerships the dealer kept answering her questions by addressing me and talking to me and basically ignoring her.
Something similar happened when applying for a mortgage, or when people call us about financial decisions.

My mother in law had a similar experience. She worked as a financial consultant. When a single less competent colleague is promoted over you, that could be a coincidence. When it happens six times in a row it isn't.

In parts of the western culture this is getting less, but full equality isn't anywhere near yet. Imagine the chances a female presidential candidate would have had with the exact same personality, money and attitudes of Trump in the US.

I have been in sales for 20 years, and it sounds like maybe I should try my hand at auto sales. Clearly they are overrun with lousy salespeople. My training and experience has always been to primarily address the woman (with exceptions, of course, based on the dynamic). Once the woman is sold- leave the couple alone for a bit and she will sell the man for you.

 

[rustypouch]

I've argued a bunch on patriarchy and related topics quite a bit over the years and I am wondering what this forum considers to be "the patriarchy" if you believe we live in one, what good or bad or neutral results come from this, and if it is possible to change this to some better alternative.

I ask in part because every time I talk to feminists regarding patriarchy I can't help but feel that it is a motte-and-bailey switch, where the easily defended position is "men make up a disproportionate amount of positions of power" ie government, CEOs, etc.

The often-withheld (but also quite often openly admitted) position is that patriarchy not only is this, but it is the general valuing of men and/or empowerment of men at the oppression and/or expense of women.

I think there could plausibly be an element of truth to this, though I personally see many problems with this idea and don't this it accurately reflects reality. I can go into more detail later.

There is another point I'd like to make, though, and that the patriarchy theory comes off identical to what I'm going to call the Jewiarchy, for convenience. Jews make up a disproportionate fraction of positions of power, and the alt-right (and older groups) see this as a kind of conspiracy theory where Jews have specific politics that oppress/neglect non-Jews in order to favor Jews (or globalism or something else, it depends on the group I guess).

Is there a reasonable difference between these theories? Do they have predictive power? What are the predictions that can be made to test these theories?

Yes, men make up a disproportionate amount of people in power. There might be all sorts of reasons, drive, ambition, opportunity, societal expectations... whether that's nature or nurture, is up for debate.

This only addresses the apex of society, a tiny portion. It doesn't take into account the experiences of most men.

You mentioned the general valuing of men over women. I don't agree with that, on a societal level. Men who aren't successful and powerful are ignored, and have their experiences dismissed, and don't matter. For example, men account for about 3/4 of the homeless and those who commit suicide, but society in general seems not to care.

 

[Brainster]

It's essentially a conspiracy theory (like the one about the Jews controlling everything): a way to explain away one's lack of success without attributing it to personal factors.

 

[psionl0]

Yes, men make up a disproportionate amount of people in power. There might be all sorts of reasons, drive, ambition, opportunity, societal expectations...

You didn't mention a physical problem. Taking time off work to bear children is a real career killer.

 

[johnny karate]

It's essentially a conspiracy theory (like the one about the Jews controlling everything): a way to explain away one's lack of success without attributing it to personal factors.

Exactly. Nothing to see here, folks. Move along.

I'm just glad us men could get together and decide that there's not a problem.

Next topic: Is racism still a thing? Our panel of white people doesn't seem to think so.

 

[theprestige]

You didn't mention a physical problem. Taking time off work to bear children is a real career killer.

Depends what you consider your career to be. If your day job is your career, then taking a few months off to cater to what is essentially a very elaborate and demanding hobby will absolutely have an effect on your career. And that goes true for everything from child-bearing to adventure tourism to ice fishing to social justice activism to anything else that starts cutting into time you'd originally pledged to your employer.

 

[CORed]

I would never claim that there is no discrimination against women, but, to me use of the phrase "The Patriarchy" is generally a red flag that the person speaking that phrase is not to be taken seriously.

 

[rustypouch]

You didn't mention a physical problem. Taking time off work to bear children is a real career killer.

Of course being out of the work force for years will have an adverse effect on a career. In this case, it's a choice.

 

[ahhell]

Semantic difference but I think its more accurate to describe most of the west as patriarchal rather than as patriarchies. There's no rules that say only men can be in charge but there are institutions and cultural norms that have tended to make that the case.

 

[William Parcher]

"If civilization had been left in female hands we would still be living in grass huts." Camille Paglia

 

[theprestige]

Semantic difference but I think its more accurate to describe most of the west as patriarchal rather than as patriarchies. There's no rules that say only men can be in charge but there are institutions and cultural norms that have tended to make that the case.

This seems like a reasonable assessment to me. I think this is probably what most people mean by "patriarchy" in the west. Except that instead of seeing it simply as the kind of patriarchal culture you describe, they imagine that the visible culture is the work of a vast male conspiracy like the Stonecutters--the "patriarchy".

 

[ahhell]

This seems like a reasonable assessment to me. I think this is probably what most people mean by "patriarchy" in the west. Except that instead of seeing it simply as the kind of patriarchal culture you describe, they imagine that the visible culture is the work of a vast male conspiracy like the Stonecutters--the "patriarchy".

I think there's a mix. On the extreme there are certainly folks that think there is a sort of conspiracy of rich men to ensure that men stay in charge, really its rich men trying to maintain their positions of privilege over women and other men.

Most folks who talk regularly about the patriarchy really do mean and imagine that its more like what I described than an actual patriarchy.

 

[pharphis]

Let's presume that the norms allow for male politicians, CEOs, etc. to more easily access those positions of power than women. Just how bad is this and how does this translate to male privilege more generally? As some have said, it's not like the rich and powerful care about low or average status men. At all.
I don't see how this position that 0.1% of the population has affects even a sizable minority of men to their benefit or women to their detriment. In fact, I see the opposite effect (male disposability and gynocentrism).

This is why I think the more watered down notion of patriarchy is often just a bait-and-switch for the conspiracy theory position.