Did we win in Iraq? Does Bush get credit?

Meadmaker

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Meadmaker
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I was cautiously optimistic in 2003 when the Iraq War began. I'm not much of a fan of war, unless you count as a subject for movies and games. The real variety are very depressing. However, I'm a big fan of democracy, and I saw an opportunity to take a dictatorship and create a democracy. In that part of the world, that would be huge. It's easy for me to say that the cost would be "worth it" since I'm too old to fight and my son too young, but I did say that such a war would be worth it if democracy could be achieved.

Furthermore, if you could go back to the archives, I always said that this was Bush's war to win or lose. If he succeeds, he gets the credit. If he fails, he gets the blame.

About two years ago, I had my mind made up. It was a failure, and he was to blame.

Was I premature? I heard the Stephanie Miller show (Air America, liberal) today for a few minutes, and they were going out of their way to say that just because there was no sectarian violence lately, and just because there were elections, doesn't mean this war was a good idea. I began to question my assumptions. If liberal talk radio found it necessary to defend the anti-war position, maybe something good had happened there after all.

To my way of thinking, if there is a genuine democracy, that would mean we have won. So, what does "genuine" mean? It means fair elections where opposition parties can run without fear for their lives or freedom. It means a sufficient degree of religious freedom that religious and ethnic minorities can practice their faith, or lack thereof, without fear for their lives and freedom. It means women can seek education and opportunity. It means mostly free speech and mostly free press.

In other words, I wouldn't demand full US style democracy, with the kind of Constitutional rights we enjoy. That would be ideal, but I wouldn't demand that before I declared victory. It just means that you could live your life more or less as you pleased, without fear of a government hit squad or private militia.

What's Iraq like today? Would I be pleasantly surprised? If so, I would be forced to admit that Bush won the war. I still wouldn't quite sing his praises, because I think he could have gotten there faster without some mismanagement, but I would have to give credit where credit is due. If Iraq is a free country, the fact that it took a few bumps to get there would be a blemish on the record, but it would be a small blemish on a very good accomplishment.

Or....have the results of an outbreak of freedom been greatly exaggerated? Is Iraq basically a hell hole where there is little sectarian violence today because the militias have carved out their enclaves, where they can be little dictators, and declared a temporary cease fire in preparation for a coming civil war?
 
Meadmaker said:
I was cautiously optimistic in 2003 when the Iraq War began. I'm not much of a fan of war, unless you count as a subject for movies and games. The real variety are very depressing. However, I'm a big fan of democracy, and I saw an opportunity to take a dictatorship and create a democracy. In that part of the world, that would be huge. It's easy for me to say that the cost would be "worth it" since I'm too old to fight and my son too young, but I did say that such a war would be worth it if democracy could be achieved.

Furthermore, if you could go back to the archives, I always said that this was Bush's war to win or lose. If he succeeds, he gets the credit. If he fails, he gets the blame.

About two years ago, I had my mind made up. It was a failure, and he was to blame.

Was I premature? I heard the Stephanie Miller show (Air America, liberal) today for a few minutes, and they were going out of their way to say that just because there was no sectarian violence lately, and just because there were elections, doesn't mean this war was a good idea. I began to question my assumptions. If liberal talk radio found it necessary to defend the anti-war position, maybe something good had happened there after all.

To my way of thinking, if there is a genuine democracy, that would mean we have won. So, what does "genuine" mean? It means fair elections where opposition parties can run without fear for their lives or freedom. It means a sufficient degree of religious freedom that religious and ethnic minorities can practice their faith, or lack thereof, without fear for their lives and freedom. It means women can seek education and opportunity. It means mostly free speech and mostly free press.

In other words, I wouldn't demand full US style democracy, with the kind of Constitutional rights we enjoy. That would be ideal, but I wouldn't demand that before I declared victory. It just means that you could live your life more or less as you pleased, without fear of a government hit squad or private militia.

What's Iraq like today? Would I be pleasantly surprised? If so, I would be forced to admit that Bush won the war. I still wouldn't quite sing his praises, because I think he could have gotten there faster without some mismanagement, but I would have to give credit where credit is due. If Iraq is a free country, the fact that it took a few bumps to get there would be a blemish on the record, but it would be a small blemish on a very good accomplishment.

Or....have the results of an outbreak of freedom been greatly exaggerated? Is Iraq basically a hell hole where there is little sectarian violence today because the militias have carved out their enclaves, where they can be little dictators, and declared a temporary cease fire in preparation for a coming civil war?
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Since none of us are there to see for ourselves then we can only rely on information given to us by other sources and those sources are often at odds with each other. I guess it comes down to a source that you believe more than others.
Personally I think Iraq has a better than 50-50 chance of succeeding on its own after we leave but the insurgency could just be waiting us out since they now have a definite end date for when we leave. 18 months give the insurgency a lot of time to plan, re-arm and organise.
 
Dahr Jamail is just back from Iraq. He reported last wednesday on the Global Research News Hour about what he saw. Not a pretty picture. Worth listening, but skip the commercials (unless you have prostate problems): .mp3 60min 14mb
 
My pithy answers:
Did we win in Iraq?
Yes.
Does Bush get credit?
No. The military does.
Was it "worth it"?
Remains to be seen. And we'll know what would have happened if we hadn't gone to war.
Did the Iraq war cause us to take the eye off the ball in Afghanistan/Pakistan (and every other part of the world)?
Yes.
 
I don't think anyone can make any serious assessments about the "success" of Bush's little foray into Iraq for a good 50 years or so.

If, when I lie dying, Iraqis are still going to the polls to freely elect their leaders, it was a success.
 
if Iraq becomes a semi-stable democracy, and maybe even starts to take a leadership role in the Middle East, then yes....someday Bush will get some credit.

but not if I have anything to say about it!!!!

=)
 
It doesn't seem right to kill that many people. There is no way this whole debacle should be seen as justifiable, regardless of the outcome. How can we know what might have happened had we not gone to war? Maybe worked some other angles?

I'd hate to think, that if Iraq becomes a model country of the world, it would strengthen our feelings about similar, future approaches to our problems.

Its great to see a rape victim overcome their trauma and create a good life for themselves...but the rapist shouldn't be proud to play a role.
 
Tricky said:
Bush gets no credit from Iraqis. The guy who threw the shoes at him is a national hero.
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The fact that they hate us is, to me, not all that relevant in determining whether or not we were successful. If they hate us, and they vote for a government that hates us, but the minority that love us is free to say so without fear, we've won.
 
Meadmaker said:
The fact that they hate us is, to me, not all that relevant in determining whether or not we were successful. If they hate us, and they vote for a government that hates us, but the minority that love us is free to say so without fear, we've won.
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I don't think that's enough. I think to answer to the question is "Overall, were the interests of the US helped by our invasion of Iraq?" and I think the answer to that question if a pretty solid "no". What you are talking about is winning the battle, not the war.
 
Meadmaker said:
The fact that they hate us is, to me, not all that relevant in determining whether or not we were successful. If they hate us, and they vote for a government that hates us, but the minority that love us is free to say so without fear, we've won.
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We haven't won. There is no win. No sugar coating, except possibly the will to quit bombing the crap out of other people with inadequate justification.
 
Tricky said:
I don't think that's enough. I think to answer to the question is "Overall, were the interests of the US helped by our invasion of Iraq?" and I think the answer to that question if a pretty solid "no". What you are talking about is winning the battle, not the war.
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If we deliver a visible defeat to al-Qaeda, and Salafism in general, in an Arab country and the locals are happy about it, I'd say that's definitely in our interests.
 
Polaris said:
If we deliver a visible defeat to al-Qaeda, and Salafism in general, in an Arab country and the locals are happy about it, I'd say that's definitely in our interests.
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Clearly we have a glass-half-full situation where both sides can look at it and declare it either a victory or a defeat with some justification.

I would have rather defeated al Qaeda in Afghanistan than in Iraq, where they didn't exist before we invaded.

If we invade Switzerland and after we invade "al Qaeda in Switzerland" forms as a result of our invasion, and we mostly defeat "al Qaeda in Switzerland," is that a victory?
 
Puppycow said:
My pithy answers:
Did we win in Iraq?
Yes.
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no we didn't.

Iraq alienated many decent people against the US administration. And rightly so.


Does Bush get credit?
No. The military does.
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The military gets no credit nor condemnation. It is a mindless borg which follows orders. It doesn't think for itself. That's the problem.


Was it "worth it"?
Remains to be seen. And we'll know what would have happened if we hadn't gone to war.
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Like what? The non-existent WMDs would have killed us all? :D:D

Did the Iraq war cause us to take the eye off the ball in Afghanistan/Pakistan (and every other part of the world)?
Yes.
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nonsense.
 
it was worth it?
ask the mothers that lost their kids to an US bomb. was it worth it?
would like to see you ask that question

but alsong you dont have to pay the price, its easy to claim its worth it..
 
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