Derren Brown Seance - repeated tonight!
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…..I wasn’t impressed …. I missed the program last time it was on ….now I’ve seen it
First of all he claims hand picked impressionable, panicky students are the type of people who went to Victorian séances? ….. actually, many famous séances were investigated by leading scientists, doctors, lawyers and magicians of the day, some of each who declared the phenomena was genuine …. So why didn’t top mentalist Derren try to fool such people? For example, would such scientists have been easily fooled by his amateurish trick to influence a majority to choose the Jane photo? I cannot think of any well known historical case that used this technique
Also Derren seems a bit of a fraud himself not even letting the viewers in on how he produced his fairly simple stunts. Showing the film of the girl apparently throwing the tambourine and claiming this was ‘unconscious fraud’ was particularly deceptive to viewers. He shows an aerial angle film, most probably not her, of someone probably filmed earlier throwing a tambourine, he can’t lose, she will deny it confirming to the viewers his claim she was an unconscious fraud …… It reminded me somewhat of the overrated but great self publicist Houdini (the patron saint of skeptics), make a show out of it, who cares if the fraud method implied bears little resemblence. They feel morally justified being a fraud to expose fraud and because they seldom reveal their actual trick method, the viewer is impressed and just a few realize the method employed doesn't really resemble the historical cases.
If Derren is going to try convince everyone all seances are fraud, particularly those who have bothered to actually read the historical psychical literature, he has to do rather better.
It seems Derren supposedly a great mentalist and conjuror falls well short of the standard of well known victorian supposedly amateur claimants, he needs to .....
- Get a scientist to buy an accordion and Faraday cage and make accordion levitate while playing melody inside it …. This is to be done in decent low light, not darkness. He is to change the weight of objects in measuring devices by not touching them (all devices to be bought by scientist not Derren) ....
- Completely convince several witnesses you have levitated out of an upper floor window and back in through another window.
- Produce ectoplasm from mouth (or cheesecloth in his case) and convince those present what they see are their dead relatives in red light. He should also agree to a medical examination by genuine medical staff beforehand (not confederates that reportedly Houdini used) and agree to experiments when he is tied firmly to chair by magicians. It would also make great TV to see Derren tied to chair unable to escape
Actually I’ve change my mind …. these cases are long in the past and most witnesses are no longer around to defend their claims ... so Derren should really try to produce modern seance phenomena ....and replicate the 1990s Scole Report Séance phenomena, witnessed by several hundred who are still living and repeated in several locations around the world. At these seances dozens of small lights, lighting up the present séance sitters fly around the room at speed (not hitting anyone), winding in and out of chair legs and through table tops, glowing inside crystal objects etc. Other objects materialize, dead people appear to materialize touch people or communicate, dematerialise, etc. In matching this claimed phenomena Derren also has to convince a handful of scientists and at least one accomplished magician the phenomena is inexplicable by conjuring means. If not, no doubt some future budding Prometheus Book author will wait till all the witnesses are dead then claim the Scole Report was done by 2 people with a torch in each hand, and the next generation of pseudo skeptics will believe them, they read it in a skeptic book, it must be true.
…… perhaps one day Derren will match some of the more interesting claims in the history of séances, make better TV, rather then scaring some witless students with what was possibly knocking over objects on table in the dark with the top of his head etc......for some reason this scared the timid students, but to give Derren credit he chose these young squealers well.
The man has a gift alright, the gift of making people think he has far more ability than he has ....... that is not really a criticism, all entertainers need it and minority possesses it in abundance..
First of all he claims hand picked impressionable, panicky students are the type of people who went to Victorian séances? ….. actually, many famous séances were investigated by leading scientists, doctors, lawyers and magicians of the day, some of each who declared the phenomena was genuine …. So why didn’t top mentalist Derren try to fool such people? For example, would such scientists have been easily fooled by his amateurish trick to influence a majority to choose the Jane photo? I cannot think of any well known historical case that used this technique
Also Derren seems a bit of a fraud himself not even letting the viewers in on how he produced his fairly simple stunts. Showing the film of the girl apparently throwing the tambourine and claiming this was ‘unconscious fraud’ was particularly deceptive to viewers. He shows an aerial angle film, most probably not her, of someone probably filmed earlier throwing a tambourine, he can’t lose, she will deny it confirming to the viewers his claim she was an unconscious fraud …… It reminded me somewhat of the overrated but great self publicist Houdini (the patron saint of skeptics), make a show out of it, who cares if the fraud method implied bears little resemblence. They feel morally justified being a fraud to expose fraud and because they seldom reveal their actual trick method, the viewer is impressed and just a few realize the method employed doesn't really resemble the historical cases.
If Derren is going to try convince everyone all seances are fraud, particularly those who have bothered to actually read the historical psychical literature, he has to do rather better.
It seems Derren supposedly a great mentalist and conjuror falls well short of the standard of well known victorian supposedly amateur claimants, he needs to .....
- Get a scientist to buy an accordion and Faraday cage and make accordion levitate while playing melody inside it …. This is to be done in decent low light, not darkness. He is to change the weight of objects in measuring devices by not touching them (all devices to be bought by scientist not Derren) ....
- Completely convince several witnesses you have levitated out of an upper floor window and back in through another window.
- Produce ectoplasm from mouth (or cheesecloth in his case) and convince those present what they see are their dead relatives in red light. He should also agree to a medical examination by genuine medical staff beforehand (not confederates that reportedly Houdini used) and agree to experiments when he is tied firmly to chair by magicians.
It would also make great TV to see Derren tied to chair unable to escape Actually I’ve change my mind …. these cases are long in the past and most witnesses are no longer around to defend their claims ... so Derren should really try to produce modern seance phenomena ....and replicate the 1990s Scole Report Séance phenomena, witnessed by several hundred who are still living and repeated in several locations around the world. At these seances dozens of small lights, lighting up the present séance sitters fly around the room at speed (not hitting anyone), winding in and out of chair legs and through table tops, glowing inside crystal objects etc. Other objects materialize, dead people appear to materialize touch people or communicate, dematerialise, etc. In matching this claimed phenomena Derren also has to convince a handful of scientists and at least one accomplished magician the phenomena is inexplicable by conjuring means. If not, no doubt some future budding Prometheus Book author will wait till all the witnesses are dead then claim the Scole Report was done by 2 people with a torch in each hand, and the next generation of pseudo skeptics will believe them, they read it in a skeptic book, it must be true.
…… perhaps one day Derren will match some of the more interesting claims in the history of séances, make better TV, rather then scaring some witless students with what was possibly knocking over objects on table in the dark with the top of his head etc......for some reason this scared the timid students, but to give Derren credit he chose these young squealers well.
The man has a gift alright, the gift of making people think he has far more ability than he has ....... that is not really a criticism, all entertainers need it and minority possesses it in abundance..
CurtC
Illuminator
Maybe he could convince witnesses that he made a rabbit appear out of a hat, or saw a woman in half. Now that would be convincing!
walthrup48
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Re: Re: Derren Brown Seance - repeated tonight!
Should Derren ever present a programme that purports to "try convince everyone all seances are fraud" I'm sure he'll take such criticisms on board. The purpose of Derren Brown: Seance, however, was stated clearly at the beginning of the show - "I am interested in the sorts of techniques used by fraudulent Victorian mediums and am interested to see whether these techniques can be used to affect a modern skeptical audience."Open Mind said:If Derren is going to try convince everyone all seances are fraud, particularly those who have bothered to actually read the historical psychical literature, he has to do rather better.
Against my better judgement, I have to ask why the clip was "probably not of her".Open Mind said:
Dr Adequate
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Yeah, right, Open Mind.
Derren should have done the stuff that fooled Victorian scientists.
He should have cracked his joints and said it was the spirits talking.
He should have produced a faked photograph of faries and said it was proof of faries.
He should have said: "I'm going to produce 'spirit phenomena', but first I'm going to get into a box so that you can't see me and then have you turn out all the lights just in case."
After all, it fooled these eminent Victorian scientists, didn't it?
The trouble is, it wouldn't fool a bunch of teenagers --- today.
So he showed them the more sophisticated frauds from the fraudulent Victorian mediums' arsenal. And they were utterly convinced and gibbered with fear.
This doesn't tell you anything?
As to your objection that he should have performed in front of scientists, plenty of scientists have been swindled --- look at Geller. Look at the "Superminds" fiasco. Look at Randi's little pranks. Derren Brown demonstrated how easily the public could be swindled. For some reason you seem to hold it against him. I wonder why.
Derren should have done the stuff that fooled Victorian scientists.
He should have cracked his joints and said it was the spirits talking.
He should have produced a faked photograph of faries and said it was proof of faries.
He should have said: "I'm going to produce 'spirit phenomena', but first I'm going to get into a box so that you can't see me and then have you turn out all the lights just in case."
After all, it fooled these eminent Victorian scientists, didn't it?
The trouble is, it wouldn't fool a bunch of teenagers --- today.
So he showed them the more sophisticated frauds from the fraudulent Victorian mediums' arsenal. And they were utterly convinced and gibbered with fear.
This doesn't tell you anything?
As to your objection that he should have performed in front of scientists, plenty of scientists have been swindled --- look at Geller. Look at the "Superminds" fiasco. Look at Randi's little pranks. Derren Brown demonstrated how easily the public could be swindled. For some reason you seem to hold it against him. I wonder why.
Azrael 5
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Open Mind-thats a misnomer forum name surely.Dr Adequate was spot on with his post,but to claim the girl in the spirit cabinet wasnt the one on the aerial camera is ludicrous.
Derren Brown "Its definetly you,throwing that tambourine isnt it?"
Girl "Yes,but I dont remember doing it,I never touched it"
What exactly would be the point of faking a fake incident?
Furthermore:why are seances conducted in semi darkness anyway Open Mind?
Derren Brown "Its definetly you,throwing that tambourine isnt it?"
Girl "Yes,but I dont remember doing it,I never touched it"
What exactly would be the point of faking a fake incident?
Furthermore:why are seances conducted in semi darkness anyway Open Mind?
The Mighty Thor
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Open Mind
Do you really believe that Daniel Dunglass Home levitated out of a three-story window and into another room?
Give us a break.
Yeah, I know. We weren't there at the time.
As for the Scole "flying lights", most of the magicians here could tell you of several ways to achieve that very effect.
The protocols you want Derren to adhere to WERE NOT applied in the Victorian/Edwardian tests.
Who searched mediums like Florence Cook for bodily hidden props?
Who checked they were tied properly?
Do you really believe that Daniel Dunglass Home levitated out of a three-story window and into another room?
Give us a break.
Yeah, I know. We weren't there at the time.
As for the Scole "flying lights", most of the magicians here could tell you of several ways to achieve that very effect.
The protocols you want Derren to adhere to WERE NOT applied in the Victorian/Edwardian tests.
Who searched mediums like Florence Cook for bodily hidden props?
Who checked they were tied properly?
Azrael 5
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I believe Harry Houdini saw off quite a few mediums in his time.No-one actually saw Douglass Home levitate through anything! Im recalling from memory of Magician among the spirits here,but the rooms were dark(sigh)and all that occured was he appeared in a different room to where he was originally.
Nearly 83 years later.....who says times change?
http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa103000b.htm
Nearly 83 years later.....who says times change?
Azrael 5 said:
I would be really careful in relying on anything written in Houdini's book...it is rife with historical errors, regarding Home or otherwise. In a recent visit through some of Houdini's "collection" at the Library of Congress, I was not terribly surprised to see unmistable signs that many of the books he had obtained on Spiritualism had never been read before. A claim to his works resembling scholarship is dubious at best.
And while it's not terribly important, Home did repeat his "levitation" for one of the sitters shortly after crossing from one window to the next; zipping out through the window and back in again horizontally. Of course, this isolated incident means very little from any scientific viewpoint on this phenomenon.
H3LL
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Derren Brown game
You might like this bit of silliness:
Derren Brown Game
Don't skip the intro.
It's worth it just to see our hero Mr. Geller's head explode.
You might like this bit of silliness:
Derren Brown Game
Don't skip the intro.
It's worth it just to see our hero Mr. Geller's head explode.
As usual I have to remind some posters above, I'm arguing the case for more open minded skepticism, I'm not really arguing the case for strong phenomena (I would though for weak PSI phenomena it exists IMO). Whether strong phenomena exists or not, I have no fixed conclusion either way, why should I have?
Come on guys you are supposed to be skeptics! You have a Derren Brown claiming to have super hypnotic powers which you all happily believe because he is on the side of the skeptics. Yet I offer you a materialistic piece of trickery (with accomplice behind back curtain) which you might happily employ to discredit any psychic claim but reject because it is not on the side of the skeptics
Just imagine how irritating it would be to Derren, if someone started claiming all his hypnosis ability was simple fraudulent trickery? They started writing books debunking him with such unproven claims They might even make TV show showing false methods as warning to th public?
OK I’ve had my fun with that so lets assume he successfully hypnotized the girl off screen earlier to throw the tambourine. This is still not ‘unconscious fraud’! … Unconscious fraud implies the person did it herself uninformed ...... however hypnotizing a young girl to throw a tambourine requires suggesting to her to do so. So she might simply have felt obliged to comply and go with the show. So if he prior hypnotized her, how many rehearsals did they have earlier to test it would work? Even if Derren said something like ‘imagine a spirit manifesting through you is throwing the tambourine over the curtain’ …. That is suggestion and falls well short of proving unconscious fraud.
If Derren was really that effective, why did he not show the others showing much more unconscious fraud during infra red séance? Was the girl medium answering questions during séance also hypnotized to give these speicific answers, she was consciously aware of her answers? Were they both hypnotized to write London?
Do you see the problem? Derren tells us nothing, explains nothing, so he comes out of it with his magical persona intact…..because if he starts explaining whichever of several possible methods was employed (it makes no difference which) his 'unconscious fraud' definition collapses, his ability appears less special and the whole things becomes more clear that it doesn't really fit the reported séance senario..
His psychological tricks were also upon the viewer getting them to accept ‘unconscious fraud’ explanation that would not stand up if he supplied the missing information. If any such psychical research cases ha left out so much missing information so many people in here would debunk for that reason alone.
I’m amazed only 2 people challenged me on this
Come on guys you are supposed to be skeptics! You have a Derren Brown claiming to have super hypnotic powers which you all happily believe because he is on the side of the skeptics. Yet I offer you a materialistic piece of trickery (with accomplice behind back curtain) which you might happily employ to discredit any psychic claim but reject because it is not on the side of the skeptics Just imagine how irritating it would be to Derren, if someone started claiming all his hypnosis ability was simple fraudulent trickery? They started writing books debunking him with such unproven claims
They might even make TV show showing false methods as warning to th public? OK I’ve had my fun with that so lets assume he successfully hypnotized the girl off screen earlier to throw the tambourine. This is still not ‘unconscious fraud’! … Unconscious fraud implies the person did it herself uninformed ...... however hypnotizing a young girl to throw a tambourine requires suggesting to her to do so. So she might simply have felt obliged to comply and go with the show. So if he prior hypnotized her, how many rehearsals did they have earlier to test it would work? Even if Derren said something like ‘imagine a spirit manifesting through you is throwing the tambourine over the curtain’ …. That is suggestion and falls well short of proving unconscious fraud.
If Derren was really that effective, why did he not show the others showing much more unconscious fraud during infra red séance? Was the girl medium answering questions during séance also hypnotized to give these speicific answers, she was consciously aware of her answers? Were they both hypnotized to write London?
Do you see the problem? Derren tells us nothing, explains nothing, so he comes out of it with his magical persona intact…..because if he starts explaining whichever of several possible methods was employed (it makes no difference which) his 'unconscious fraud' definition collapses, his ability appears less special and the whole things becomes more clear that it doesn't really fit the reported séance senario..
His psychological tricks were also upon the viewer getting them to accept ‘unconscious fraud’ explanation that would not stand up if he supplied the missing information. If any such psychical research cases ha left out so much missing information so many people in here would debunk for that reason alone.
Really? I thought one of the scole reports researchers already made that challange and got no reply?
I'm sorry, Open Mind...
I'm really not clear what you are objecting to here. Derren Brown does not claim to be anything other than a good stage magician - he clearly laid out his case at the beginning of the program, also, the very first girl he did a cold reading on, he immediately TOLD her he had used 'fraudulent' means to do the reading. At the end of the program he walked out of the studio to get 'Jane' - clearly he debriefed the attendees...
Whether he hypnotised anyone or not (I am inclined to agree he did) his specific methods were not at issue. Did he not go far enough for you? Most of the public do not have your knowledge of what the Victorian mediums could claim to do and probably, many of their grandstanding tricks would seem nonsensical to a modern day audience.
I found the program to be really interesting. I sussed the directions to pick Jane though - my husband was watching the programme with me and he picked Jane also - even though he started on a different picture. I am pretty sure some of the students would have sussed it but were too swept along by the whole event to spoil it. Such 'group closure' can be used to great effect I'm guessing.
I couldn't quite get away from the fact that all the students were wearing big scarfs! Do you think that was just to conceal microphones?
Pax
DeVega
I'm really not clear what you are objecting to here. Derren Brown does not claim to be anything other than a good stage magician - he clearly laid out his case at the beginning of the program, also, the very first girl he did a cold reading on, he immediately TOLD her he had used 'fraudulent' means to do the reading. At the end of the program he walked out of the studio to get 'Jane' - clearly he debriefed the attendees...
Whether he hypnotised anyone or not (I am inclined to agree he did) his specific methods were not at issue. Did he not go far enough for you? Most of the public do not have your knowledge of what the Victorian mediums could claim to do and probably, many of their grandstanding tricks would seem nonsensical to a modern day audience.
I found the program to be really interesting. I sussed the directions to pick Jane though - my husband was watching the programme with me and he picked Jane also - even though he started on a different picture. I am pretty sure some of the students would have sussed it but were too swept along by the whole event to spoil it. Such 'group closure' can be used to great effect I'm guessing.
I couldn't quite get away from the fact that all the students were wearing big scarfs! Do you think that was just to conceal microphones?
Pax
DeVega
Why do normally intelligent and skeptical people continue to believe in Hypnosis?
Hypnosis is a fraud. There are not altered states of conciousnous, and *no* way for suggestions to be buried in the subconcious that can be later recalled.
At best Hypnotism is a pretense - 2 people agree to play roles (of Hypnotist and subject) and go along. Now you may *call* this Hypnosis but in this case it's exactly equialent to Derren Brown before the show saying to the girl :
'Listen love - when I pull the curtain chuck the tamourine out and pretend it wasn't you - it'll look good on TV'
If you want to call that Hypnosis then fine.
Let me tell you - No magician would risk that on a Live TV show (See how quick DB moved in on the non moving Ouija board and replaced the only one who could push in the direction of J)
There may be magicians here who know how the trick was done, but I'm guessing that the video was prerecorded. How Derren got another girl with similar hair / stature / clothes makes my mind boggle! But this is at least a rational explanation of how the effect is achieved.
Azrael 5
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Rational to you maybe,but as you stated the alternative is mind boggling.Just because you dont believe his presentation,dont go scrambling about for ridiculous explanations.pjh said:
Edited to add:Your explaination for the tambourine flying from the tent implies a stooge.Beside the disclaimer to the contrary,I dont believe he would use them.
Let's be clear here (I know this is discussing magical tricks, but since I'm only guessing I'm not exposing anything)
I don't think that the girl was a stooge. If the video 'showing her' throwing the tambourine was pre-recorded (and of another similary dressed girl) then the tambourine (that the Live audience saw thrown) was thrown by an unseen third party - 'Behind the curtain!!!!'
I think that trick can be achieved without a stooge or ................ HYPNOTISM!!!!!
Azrael 5
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More for pjh to get all worked up about a quote from the show.
Found this site today,in response to seance http://www.psychics.co.uk/spiritualism/derren-brown.html
Dr Adequate
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They'd have to match her clothes in advance, sufficiently well so as to convince her.pjh said:I don't think that the girl was a stooge. If the video 'showing her' throwing the tambourine was pre-recorded (and of another similary dressed girl) then the tambourine (that the Live audience saw thrown) was thrown by an unseen third party - 'Behind the curtain!!!!'
I think that trick can be achieved without a stooge or ................ HYPNOTISM!!!!!
However, I agree that the mechanism of that particular trick was debateable. But how about the "Atheists into Theists" trick, or the "Shopping Mall Hypnosis"? Either he uses lots and lots of stooges --- hundreds --- any of whom could blow the whistle --- or he really has stronger powers of suggestion than, for example, you or I do. (Or the people on his shows are all computer generated, or there's another explanation I haven't thought of....) What exactly hypnosis is still seems an equivocal subject. But whatever it is, it seems that he can do it and I can't. For example, if hypnotism is in fact collusion between hynotist and hypnotised --- then I do not know how to elicit such collusion. Do you? I remain impressed.
‘Involuntary’?
Two opinions.
In my opinion (and I could be wrong) you can only try to influence someone to do something using a lot of manipulative techniques, the person might simply miss the influence or reject your train of thought …… strongly influence perhaps, involuntary induce I doubt.
Does anyone think Derren Brown could hypnotize someone to ’involuntary’ commit a crime and not remember it? So if Lee Harvey Oswald was impressionable someone could hypnotize him to ‘involuntary’ commit an assassination? I’m just wondering where Derren Brown heading with his ‘involuntary’ claims?
Let’s translate that to the séance room. So a sincere medium could be hypnotized (or in this case usually self hypnotize) to unconsciously and involuntary throw a tambourine?
Most mediums are completely conscious. If Derren is referring to ‘trance’ mediumship more common in séances then even many old Victorian spiritualists were concerned. They believed a insincere person going into trance might end up deluding themselves, others or worse being tricked by mischievous spirits who might cause medium with potential to commit unconscious fraud. They believed a sincere person with good motives would attract more reliable results but still the mediums mind could interfere and cause inaccuracies in what the good spirit communicator wanted to say. (Others trusted them without question). Whereas Derren (and Houdini) seems to have looked upon ‘trance’ as necessarily accurate or fraud, the spiritualists didn’t necessarily. They tolerated error, looking for evidence to evolve and improve…
If Derren thinks mediumship is ‘ugly’ fraud, rather than use a misleading and incoherent trick techniques in a TV stunt …. .. more productive would be for him to take part in long term controlled double blind trials in impossible to cheat circumstances against some better psychics, then that would be of more interest.