Debunking Noah, and I need some help

[Mudcat]

My mom is getting deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole with religion and has become positively obsessed with the book of Genesis, believing every word of it to be true. Normally I wouldn't be concerned with it except that she keeps on trying to force that crap on me.

'Why me?' is a huge mystery here. I'm not her only child, I am the oldest of three. None of my siblings are any more religious I am, in fact she about made herself unwelcome at my sister's house for trying to press this crap onto my niece and nephew. My brother made it clear he didn't want anything more to do with religion either.

I've done warned her if she didn't curb her enthusiasm I would take the wind out of her sails. Needless to say she didn't listen. Oh well, I did warn her... she has no one to blame but herself.

Right now she is obsessed with the story of Noah. Here is what I have so far in my dismantling of the story:

The Ancient Calendar: I was unable to find any information about where and when Noah lived, almost as if Noah just popped out of no where in a fictional story as one of the earliest examples of Sues in history. But [circular reasoning] that can't possibly be since the Bible is the literal word of God because the Bible tells us so.[/circular reasoning]

So lets start with Noah, who somehow managed to live to be the age of 950 years old. Since we know that no one in the distant past would have lived much past 40 years old, never mind 900, that is clearly impossible. It's was almost as if Noah was, again, a badly written character with excessively unrealistic characteristics (the very epitome of being a Sue). [circular reasoning]But the Bible must be right, because it's the word of God, because the Bible tells us so[/circular reasoning].

Damn, reading that last sentence makes me feel like a hamster stuck on a running wheel.

But such is the thinking of creationists, who often like to shift goal posts: [goalpost shift]Well, there were different calendars used in his time so maybe they measured time differently[/goalpost shift] It is true, Mesopotamia (the area it is believed he was from) the calendar was only 360 days long as opposed to the current 365... I know doesn't help your argument any does it? It gets worse from there for you, I'm afraid. The ancient calendar that he would have been living under had he not been a Sue instead of a person that actually existed only measured 2 seasons. Not 4, like ours, nor 8 like you were suggesting. Just 2. Even if you measured out his claimed years to the number of seasons in a year, you'd still get a man of 425 and some odd years.

Yeah, I know. Sucks that reality doesn't conform to fairy tales (at this point I think I'm done even pretending this crap has any kind of voracity, if you don't mind), but reality works out better without supernatural events.

Which is about as far as I got, but I need more. So [damsel in distress mode]Help me JREFF, your my only hope![/damsel in distress mode]

 

[Qeidx]

My mom is getting deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole with religion and has become positively obsessed with the book of Genesis, believing every word of it to be true. Normally I wouldn't be concerned with it except that she keeps on trying to force that crap on me.

'Why me?' is a huge mystery here. I'm not her only child, I am the oldest of three. None of my siblings are any more religious I am, in fact she about made herself unwelcome at my sister's house for trying to press this crap onto my niece and nephew. My brother made it clear he didn't want anything more to do with religion either.

I've done warned her if she didn't curb her enthusiasm I would take the wind out of her sails. Needless to say she didn't listen. Oh well, I did warn her... she has no one to blame but herself.

Right now she is obsessed with the story of Noah. Here is what I have so far in my dismantling of the story:
Which is about as far as I got, but I need more. So [damsel in distress mode]Help me JREFF, your my only hope![/damsel in distress mode]

There's no evidence of the flood. None, in fact, JUST the opposite. That alone I could go on with for hours.

There was no mention of feed on the boat, in which case, how is it so that he managed to feed all animals?

AND, if he did, all animals would have died out from horrific incest problems, since, only two of each animal.

And an immense amount more. I'll be back later.

 

[LSSBB]

My mom is getting deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole with religion and has become positively obsessed with the book of Genesis, believing every word of it to be true. Normally I wouldn't be concerned with it except that she keeps on trying to force that crap on me.

'Why me?' is a huge mystery here. I'm not her only child, I am the oldest of three. None of my siblings are any more religious I am, in fact she about made herself unwelcome at my sister's house for trying to press this crap onto my niece and nephew. My brother made it clear he didn't want anything more to do with religion either.

I've done warned her if she didn't curb her enthusiasm I would take the wind out of her sails. Needless to say she didn't listen. Oh well, I did warn her... she has no one to blame but herself.

Right now she is obsessed with the story of Noah. Here is what I have so far in my dismantling of the story:
Which is about as far as I got, but I need more. So [damsel in distress mode]Help me JREFF, your my only hope![/damsel in distress mode]

I think your key is Methuselah. There are discrepancies in how long he lived and any way you count it he outlived the flood, start from there.

 

[Ignosticist]

Noah FAQ

I think this might give you some ideas: Noah Faq

 

[JudeBrando]

So lets start with Noah, who somehow managed to live to be the age of 950 years old. Since we know that no one in the distant past would have lived much past 40 years old, never mind 900, that is clearly impossible.

Some theorize that the pre-flood environment may have been greatly different than ours is today. What if the earth was essentially surrounded by an atmosphere of greater water vapor and greater atmospheric pressure, essentially amounting to something like a hyperbaric chamber and which greatly shielded the earth from uv rays? Longer, healthier lifespans, larger creatures and a more uniform global climate with lush vegetation at the poles (like we've found) could be possible.

I don't know. They don't know. And despite what you think, you most certainly do not know either.

There was no mention of feed on the boat, in which case, how is it so that he managed to feed all animals?

"Also take with you every sort of food that is eaten, and store it up. It shall serve as food for you and for them."

AND, if he did, all animals would have died out from horrific incest problems, since, only two of each animal.

"Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate, and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate, and seven pairs of the birds of the heavens also, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth."

And an immense amount more. I'll be back later.

Oh goody.

Funny how certain people are about what they know.

 

[Qeidx]

"Also take with you every sort of food that is eaten, and store it up. It shall serve as food for you and for them."

The food is not mentioned-What is every sort of food that is eaten? As I said, still stands. What food was taken? Certainly not enough for the given animals.

"Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate, and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate, and seven pairs of the birds of the heavens also, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth."

Precisely, and it still fits with what's said before. Horrendous incest.

Oh goody.

Funny how certain people are about what they know.

Don't even know what this is saying. I'm about what I know? Explain this.

 

[Lowpro]

Some theorize that the pre-flood environment may have been greatly different than ours is today. What if the earth was essentially surrounded by an atmosphere of greater water vapor and greater atmospheric pressure, essentially amounting to something like a hyperbaric chamber and which greatly shielded the earth from uv rays? Longer, healthier lifespans, larger creatures and a more uniform global climate with lush vegetation at the poles (like we've found) could be possible.

Whoever thought that up was a moron with no concept of physics, nevermind actually studied geology...

I don't know. They don't know. And despite what you think, you most certainly do not know either.

They know enough to know which ideas are stupid, and a hyperbaric chamber hypothesis is full blown stupid.

 

[JudeBrando]

You say "no mention of feed."
I show you the mentioning of food.
You say "only two."
I show you where it says "seven pairs."
You cannot admit either mistake.
Because you know.

 

[Qeidx]

You say "no mention of food."
I show you the mentioning of food.
You say "only two."
I show you where it says "seven."

You show mention of no such food. You mention food in a nebulous sense.

What food was it?

This is my point

I say only two, and you show where it says seven, which, still holds to the horrendous incest.

So now, do make a decent response to what I already asked before.

 

[JudeBrando]

You show mention of no such food. You mention food in a nebulous sense.

What food was it?

This is my point

I say only two, and you show where it says seven, which, still holds to the horrendous incest.

So now, do make a decent response to what I already asked before.

No.

 

[kerikiwi]

Some theorize that the pre-flood environment may have been greatly different than ours is today. What if the earth was essentially surrounded by an atmosphere of greater water vapor and greater atmospheric pressure, essentially amounting to something like a hyperbaric chamber and which greatly shielded the earth from uv rays? Longer, healthier lifespans, larger creatures and a more uniform global climate with lush vegetation at the poles (like we've found) could be possible.

Some make up anything at all, with no evidence and against all existing evidence to force a myth to be true.
It's a story. It's not true. It didn't happen. It couldn't happen.
Now, what are the theories to make the story of Jonah in the whale true?

 

[bikerdruid]

wow...another one....
hyperbaric chamber?

jude, dude...where do you get this stuff?

 

[Qeidx]

No.

Then you're as bankrupt as this nonsense story and my statements still stand, and even more firm than before.

 

[Lowpro]

Now, what are the theories to make the story of Jonah in the whale true?

God's saving grace...duh

 

[Mudcat]

Some theorize that the pre-flood environment may have been greatly different than ours is today. What if the earth was essentially surrounded by an atmosphere of greater water vapor and greater atmospheric pressure, essentially amounting to something like a hyperbaric chamber and which greatly shielded the earth from uv rays? Longer, healthier lifespans, larger creatures and a more uniform global climate with lush vegetation at the poles (like we've found) could be possible.

What you are suggesting is complete nonsense and would have made life as we know it practically impossible. If I was teaching a creative writing class I'd give you an 'F', this crap isn't fit for 5th rate scifi fan fiction.

I don't know. They don't know. And despite what you think, you most certainly do not know either.

Highlight mine, because you only got one thing right this entire thread.

"Also take with you every sort of food that is eaten, and store it up. It shall serve as food for you and for them."

What kind of food, how much of it, and where was it stored?

"Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate, and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate, and seven pairs of the birds of the heavens also, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth."

Great, that would mean that all life on earth would have only a couple more generations before inbreeding caused it all to go extinct.

 

[Shalamar]

One of the issues is the spread of the animals from the ark.

When the floods receded, the ark came to rest on a mountain, and the animals were released. We can actually test and look for this.

If a world spanning flood occurred, with every animals, we should see two things.

One: Mass graves in silt and debris with animals and people.

Two: Mass migrations of ALL animals spreading from one point on the globe. We would see remains of the animals leading from the starting point to their destination. This, at least, we do not see in any way in either remains, or records of peoples.

 

[Brian-M]

Hmph. The great flood in the story of Noah is hardly original. Here's the real story (according to the ancient Greeks)...

After the gods had defeated the Titans, trouble began among the people of earth (the first humans were supposedly created by the Titan Prometheus). In Arcadia, the tyrant Lyacon refused to worship the gods, and mocked his people for not believing them.

To see how bad things were, Zeus (Jupiter) disguised himself as a mortal, and went to Arcadia. When he told the common folk that he was a god, they would believe him and worship him as was fitting. But Lycaon would not believe, and mocked the people for being so credulous, and announced (out of earshot from Zeus) that he would test the traveler.

Because everyone knows the gods are immortal, Lycaon said, all I have to do is kill this fellow and you will all see how foolish you have been.

But before attempting to murder the traveler, Lycaon took a prisoner who was being held as a hostage, and cut him up so the pieces could be cooked into various dishes at a banquet, in order to pollute the traveler's mouth and stomach with forbidden food.

At the banquet, Zeus realized what was going on, and struck the meat from the table and brought bolts of lightning against the place. Lycaon was quick enough to escape the fire, but not quickly enough to escape the vengeance of Zeus, who transformed him into a bloodthirsty wolf.

After this, Zeus decided that the whole of humankind deserved to die. The other gods, thinking of their festivals and temples, objected. Who would be left to worship them?

So Zeus promised that the human race would not die out completely, but a new breed of humans, more respectful to the gods, would come into being.

On top of Mount Olympus, ready to begin hurling lighting bolts, Zeus remembered a prophecy that the world would end in fire. Not wishing to unintentionally destroy the world, he laid his weapon to one side and announced "Let the waters carry my revenge and then subside, so that life can return once more."

At this, the South Wind gathered black storm clouds that poured down their rain and washed the crops away. But this was not enough to satisfy Zeus.

Zeus called to his brother Poseidon (Neptune), lord of sea. Poseidon commanded all the rivers and streams to flood, then struck the earth with his trident, causing the earth to shudder and crack open, letting the sea flood in.

Giant waves smashed across the land, cities were washed away. Those who survive on ships starved to death.

Eventually only two people were left alive in a boat. Deucalion son of Prometheus, and Pyrriha daughter of Epimetheus. They were the best of humans, always quick to honor the gods. They would make the best possible parents for the new race of human beings.

Gradually, the ocean grew calm and the peaks of the mountains began to appear. Their boat became lodged between the two summits of Mount Parnassus. The first thing Deucalion and Pyrriha did was to give thanks to the gods of Mount Parnassus, and pray for their help.

When the waters were low enough to uncover the ruins of the temple of Themis, they knelt down at the temple and prayed that Themis would help them rescue the human race from extinction.

Themis announced to them: You must walk away from the temple, veiling your heads and loosening your garments, throwing behind you the bones of your mother.

Pyrrha was appalled at the thought of digging up the grave of her mother and throwing her bones, but then remembered that oracles often spoke in riddles.

Thinking it over, they realized that the mother she meant must be the great mother of all, Gaia the earth mother. Neither was confident that this was the correct interpretation, but they could not think of what else it might mean.

With their heads covered and their garments loosened, they picked up stones from the muddy ground and began to walk away from the temple. At every step they would throw a stone or two behind them.

Each stone, as it fell into the mud, started to change shape and grow larger. They began to look like roughly carved marble statues, then like statues as big as life, and finally they grew warm and started to breath.

Each stone that Pyrrha threw became a woman, and each stone that Deucalion threw became a man. This is why the peoples of Earth are strong and tough, because their origin was the strong, tough stones of Parnassus.

(If your mother would believe the story of Noah, why would she not be willing to believe this one? Both stories are equally absurd.)

Source of information...
MYTHOLOGY: Myths, Legends, & Fantasies
Consultant Editor: Alice Mills
Copyright 2003, Global Book Publishing, pty, ltd.

 

[Mudcat]

Right now I am debunking the parcGod out of the global flood model, if I could have some help with the local flood model (which she'll probably use to worm out of critically thinking about what she's trying to push onto her offspring) that would be fantastic. Thanks in advance.

 

[Leumas]

Mudcat,

Using science or factual logic will not convince your mom of anything.

Using the numbers and polar bears and penguins and feeding and amount of water and all that ludicrous nonsense will NOT sway her....she can explain it all away with God helping out.

Of course why would god even bother to tell Noah to do all that if he was going to help in the first place is beyond their comprehension too. Why would god not just click his fingers and kill who needs to be killed and leave out all that devastation of animals and plants? Why not just THINK about it and it is all done and over with without having to depend on Noah.

I think the only possible way to make her appreciate the heinousness of the Noah story is to make her imagine how utterly bad it is of god to kill all the children and infants and unborn babies in their mothers' bellies.

Was there not a SINGLE….SINGLE child or baby who less sinful than Noah or his children and their wives?

How could the children have sinned enough to deserve such horrible death of slow and agonizing death by drowning.

And if she thinks that the people that god saved were nice people ask her to read Genesis 9:18-27.

First what was Ham's fault....wasn't it Noah who got DRUNK...how good a behavior is that? At the very least it is not less righteous than INFANTS suckling at their mothers' breasts?

Then look at how Noah cursed Ham.... did he really deserve to have HIS CHILDREN become SLAVES to their uncle's children?

How nice is that?

If Ham deserved the curse then he was not a nice person and did not deserve to be saved in preference to all those innocent infants and children.

If Ham did not deserve the curse then Noah was not a nice person and certainly did not deserve a bunk on the Ark to the exclusion of the sinless children and hapless suckling babies.

Also.... and here is the most ridiculous aspect.

If the human race was marred by the original sin of Adam and Eve why didn't God just wipe them ALL out....why save 8?

Didn't god know that the 8 already carry the seed of sin inherited from Adam and Eve?

Had he wiped all of humans out and started over again he would not have had to go through all that trouble with Mary and the torture of his poor son Jesus.

I mean he killed all of them except for an old man and his three children and the wives.....one of the children turns out to be so HEINOUS as to deserve such a VILE CURSE from Noah...or Noah was the heinous one if his son did not deserve it.

So WHY did he keep such flawed lot?.....Did he just want to have an excuse to KILL his son one day?

Couldn't god think about the future or did he not know it.

What about free will? Why did he violate the free will of all those people he genocided?

Of course also do try to point out all the retarded epistemology….. but do stress the fact that killing suckling infants and unborn babies cannot be just waved away by saying that their parents were sinful…. Would your mother advocate killing the baby of a person who killed someone?

I suggest that maybe you should actually have a Bible Study session with your mother about Noah…. Genesis 6,7,8 and 9. It is not long just 4 chapters you can probably do it in three sessions of one hour.

But during the reading make sure you point out all the epistemological problems. Especially why do all that drama and not just click his fingers and just target the bad people. Also the poor infants and unborn babies.

Here is a really funny and witty take on the whole thing by Robert Ingersoll

• http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/ingermm2.htm#XVIII

Here are some other resources

• http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-noahs-ark.html
• http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6nzG4-r830
• http://www.trueorigin.org/arkdefen.asp
• http://www.epicidiot.com/evo_cre/noahs_flood.htm

 

[Leumas]

."

"Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate, and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate, and seven pairs of the birds of the heavens also, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth."

So which was it....TWO or Seven?

And what is a CLEAN animal..... nobody was told what animals to eat or not to eat and what was clean or not since all this is in Exodus much later. In fact according to Genesis 9:3 it might be implied that people did not even eat animals until after the flood.

Genesis

{6:19} And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every [sort] shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep [them] alive with thee; they shall be male and female. {6:20} Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every [sort] shall come unto thee, to keep [them] alive.