Dean's comments on pickups, confederate flag, spark controversy

Tony

Penultimate Amazing
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http://www.billingsgazette.com/inde...s/2003/11/01/build/nation/67-deancomments.inc ...full article


WASHINGTON - A comment by Howard Dean about Confederate flags and pickup trucks has embroiled the leading Democrats in Iowa's presidential caucuses in a name-calling donnybrook.

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," the former Vermont governor was quoted as saying in Saturday's Des Moines Register. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean said Saturday that he was intending to encourage the return of Southern voters who have abandoned the Democrats for decades but are disaffected with the Republicans.


Two Democrat rivals competing against Dean in Iowa's leadoff Jan. 19 caucuses saw the comment differently.

Im curious to know what the Dean supporters thing of these comments.

"I would rather be the candidate of the NAACP than the NRA," Kerry said in a statement.


On another note, this is an interesting if not frightening quote from Kerry.
 
Tony said:
http://www.billingsgazette.com/inde...s/2003/11/01/build/nation/67-deancomments.inc ...full article

Im curious to know what the Dean supporters thing of these comments.

On another note, this is an interesting if not frightening quote from Kerry.

But Dean is a Yankee!

us-csanj.gif


My opinion was that Dean was the least offensive Democrat candidate. Now I'm not so sure.

Does this life-long Democrat have to vote for Bush? I'm vomiting at the possibility, but it may work out that way.

Why Oh why have the Democrats turned into a suicide cult? I'd vote for Hubert Humphrey, but he's dead.
 
Re: Re: Dean's comments on pickups, confederate flag, spark controversy

Abdul Alhazred said:

My opinion was that Dean was the least offensive Democrat candidate. Now I'm not so sure.

Does this life-long Democrat have to vote for Bush? I'm vomiting at the possibility, but it may work out that way.

Why Oh why have the Democrats turned into a suicide cult? I'd vote for Hubert Humphrey, but he's dead.

Speaking as a conservative who has not registered with either party, I am hoping (persoanlly) that the Dems nominate someone other than Dean. After listening to them, he is the one guy on the Dem platform that I just don't thinbk I could -ever- vote for.

If he gets the nod, it will be far harder for the Dems to do well in 2004. All personal opinion written after zero research, so it HAS to be right.
 
I read the article in Salon.com about this:

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/11/01/dean/index.html

And it disturbed me as well, but the last paragraph gave me food for thought:

One instance came Feb. 22 at a meeting of the Democratic National Committee in Washington. Dean said the men with Confederate flag decals in their pickup trucks represented lucrative prospects for the party "because their kids don't have health insurance, either, and their kids need better schools, too."

To propose another way of looking at it:

There are a bunch of pickup-driving, confederate-flag-sticker Americans who could be sold on better schools and insurance reform. Could it be a positive thing--that Dean is avoiding an all-too-common assumption that everyone that has the confederate logo on their pickup truck should be dismissed as racist?

He can be trying to appeal to them without supporting what their extremists support.
 
gnome said:
I read the article in Salon.com about this:

http://www.salon.com/news/wire/2003/11/01/dean/index.html

And it disturbed me as well, but the last paragraph gave me food for thought:



To propose another way of looking at it:

There are a bunch of pickup-driving, confederate-flag-sticker Americans who could be sold on better schools and insurance reform. Could it be a positive thing--that Dean is avoiding an all-too-common assumption that everyone that has the confederate logo on their pickup truck should be dismissed as racist?

He can be trying to appeal to them without supporting what their extremists support.

There are a bunch of working class folks who could be sold on lots and lots of goverment control as a cure for their problems. That's not good.

I don't think that the Confederate flag is ipso facto kiddo a sign of racism. But Howard Dean, rich kid from New York even if Vermont was the state he was governor of, should know better.
 
I take it the Dukes of Hazzard was a racist program with the car "the General Lee" with the Confederate flag on top and a horn that played dixie?

Its hard to fathom how a group of loud mouthed advocates have taken an innocuous symbol of the south and turned it into something hateful and wrong.

The sons of black confederates who meet in this area fly it with pride.
 
corplinx said:
I take it the Dukes of Hazzard was a racist program with the car "the General Lee" with the Confederate flag on top and a horn that played dixie?

Its hard to fathom how a group of loud mouthed advocates have taken an innocuous symbol of the south and turned it into something hateful and wrong.

The sons of black confederates who meet in this area fly it with pride.

Im sure you have heard the term "symbolism over substance". PC mongers latch onto the rebel flag as a symbol of "hate" because it keeps them free from actually having to think.
 
Tony said:


Im sure you have heard the term "symbolism over substance". PC mongers latch onto the rebel flag as a symbol of "hate" because it keeps them free from actually having to think.

May I cross post this to the Phelps thread?

PS There are many blacks who view the c-flag as a racist symbol, but I would think that they would rather have a friendly face in the white house then worry abou gun racks in pickem up trucks.
 
Dancing David said:


May I cross post this to the Phelps thread?

Why?

PS There are many blacks who view the c-flag as a racist symbol, but I would think that they would rather have a friendly face in the white house then worry abou gun racks in pickem up trucks.

There are many whites who view the malcom x "X" symbol as a racist symbol. Ignorance is ignorance.
 
Well, as a Dean supporter who has lived all my life in the South, I think he has to be able to appeal to such a group. I think its a good decision. He needs to help break down bariers, not be exlusive. He's trying to keep this from being an "us vs them" issue and make it more inclusive. You can help people and change their views more with cooperation than opposition.

Dean reaching out to "proud Southerners" can do so much more good than Jessie Jackson and Al Sharpton shouting at them.

Plus, unless you have lived in the South then you dont have any idea how many people DO have Confederate Flags on their pickup trucks, etc, and that many fo these peopel also hate Bush too.

I say good move on Dean's part.
 
The Confederate Flag has been John ("I hate your politics") Scalzi's bête noire for some time. A brief excerpt:

Every time I hear a white southerner talk about his "Southern Heritage," I want to take a torch and burn my way from Atlanta to the Atlantic Ocean. Like most folks who were not raised in the South, to my ears "Southern Heritage" isn't anything but genteel code for "Dumbass Bigot Culture." Let us make no mistake, there is a Southern Heritage -- a fine tradition of music and literature and food. However, your typical dumbass bigot waving his Confederate Battle Flag couldn't identify Bill Faulkner in a line up, much less claim to have read, say, Absalom, Absalom! His Southern Heritage seems largely confined to the battle jack and a yearning for a time when you could whip the darkies when they got out of line.

Confederate apologists like to maintain there's nothing about the Confederate battle flag that's inherently racist, but this is of course nothing but unmitigated crap run up a flagpole. Everything about the Confederacy is racist; strip down the camouflaged arguments about state's rights as they relate to the Antibellum South to their essentials, and what you've got is this: Black slaves. The South had them and wanted to keep them. Everything that is inherently "Southern," from its agrarian ethos to the social mores, has the institution of slavery as its common black thread. Make no mistake: Had slavery not existed in the South, there never would have been a Civil War. There would have been no Confederacy without it.

This is why us Yankees (or anyone whose skin shade is browner than 70s station wagon beige) are boggled that anyone would want to ally themselves, intellectually or culturally, with the cause of the Confederacy. In doing so, you ally yourself with a political entity whose whole reason for existing was to keep other men enslaved -- indeed, the only salient differences between the the Constitution of the United States and Constitution of the Confederacy related directly to slaves (my favorite bit is in Article IV, Section 2, in which the Dred Scott decision is enshrined as an article of Confederate doctrine).

http://www.scalzi.com/w010125.htm

The interesting thing about Kerry's comment is that the NRA was started by ex-Union soldiers, although I believe the idea of the National Rifle Assocation got its start in Britan.

I think it's obvious that Dean wants to appeal to Southern voters by appealing to their economic conditions rather than their cultural views. Dean's from a long line of blue bloods. He even attended a more prestigious and exclusive prep school than George W. Bush. Indeed, Bush's great Grandmother was a bridesmaid at Dean's great grandmother's wedding.
 
As much as they would like to, no one from teh North can intelligently comment on life in the South, or "Souther Heritage", or Southern values, or anying of that nature.

I myself am sick of the South and its stupid redneck ways, but the fact is, it's much more complex than Northerners think.

"Southern Heritage" = simple mindedness, not rascism in most people's minds.

The two may well be related, btut what Southerns identify the Rebel flag with is "simpler times", "right and wrong", "I don't givea crap what you think attitude", "government sucks", "Jesus is Lord", "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out", etc. It's amazing how many Rebel Flags crossed with American flags you see down here, as if that makes any sense.

In the Southern mind the Southerners won the war, and in their mind "Southern values" = American values.

Now all of that is total idiocy IMO, but when you attack the rebel flag that is what you are really attacking, not rascism as far as a Southerner is concerned.

Keep in mind that you will see more rebel flags in Atlanta then just about anywhere and Atlanta has the highest black population in America.
 
Malachi151 said:
In the SOuth mind, the Southers won the war, and in their mind "Southern values" = American values.

And you are supposed to the diamond in the rough intelligent southerner?
 
The Central Scrutinizer said:
I only got as far as "Howard Dean said...", then I put my brain on ignore.

Isnt that it's default mode? :p ;) :D
 
corplinx said:
I take it the Dukes of Hazzard was a racist program with the car "the General Lee" with the Confederate flag on top and a horn that played dixie?

Its hard to fathom how a group of loud mouthed advocates have taken an innocuous symbol of the south and turned it into something hateful and wrong.

The sons of black confederates who meet in this area fly it with pride.

Is it really "innocuous"?

Here is a great excerpt from one of the chief writers of the CSA Constitution, Alexander Stephens. He is discussing the new Confederate government:

"Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition. [Applause.] This, our new government, is the first, in the history of the world, based upon this great physical, philosophical, and moral truth. This truth has been slow in the process of its development, like all other truths in the various departments of science. It has been so even amongst us. Many who hear me, perhaps, can recollect well, that this truth was not generally admitted, even within their day. The errors of the past generation still clung to many as late as twenty years ago."

Of course you can find racist statements from people in the North as well. However, to say your government is the first who's cornerstone rests on racial inequality, makes me have a bit of sympathy with the vast majority of blacks in America who find the symbol offensive...
 
Sounds like short hand for a candidate trying to claim that he is interested in reaching out to all kinds of Americans.

Since he is a yankee, and probably not raised in the country (though all parts of this great nation have rural environs), Confederate be-flagged pick-ups might be polar opposite to his station.
 
It mainly offends rich liberals more than it offends any single black person. (Some people have lives...)
 
Dean's statement = I need someone other than New England liberals to vote for me, or I'm toast.

Twisting it to somehow mean he sympathizes with slavery or racism or something is just plain weird.


Kerry's statement, "I would rather be the candidate of the NAACP than the NRA," shows that to many Dems, those two groups remain mutually exclusive, which is incorrect. Dean has figured this simple truth, and it will help him in November if he wins the nomination.

As for this...
Our new government is founded upon exactly the opposite idea; its foundations are laid, its corner- stone rests upon the great truth, that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery -- subordination to the superior race -- is his natural and normal condition....etc. etc. etc.

Anyone else automatically add a southern accent in your head while you read that?
 

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