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Dean Radin - harmless pseudo-psientist.

The Atheist

The Grammar Tyrant
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
36,362
I'm starting this thread as we're getting off topic and onto Radin in another thread.

I find it difficult to have a problem with people like Dean Radin - his claims are that various forms of psi exist, but that they are so low-powered that scientific testing is virtually impossible.

To me, he is like a liberal christian who looks to be inclusive and makes no claims which can't be hidden in gaps in our knowledge.

Mostly harmless.
 
. . . .I find it difficult to have a problem with people like Dean Radin - his claims are that various forms of psi exist, but that they are so low-powered that scientific testing is virtually impossible. . . .


So, it's homeopo-psi?
 
I claim that UFOs carrying intelligent life from other planets are here, but are simply undetectable by current scientific methods. Also, invisible Bigfoots. And Chupacabras.

Is promoting ideas such as these (which differ little from Radin's claims) harmless? I guess it depends on how you define "harm."

Personally, I think that pointing out the silliness of such claims is a positive thing.
 
I think that the relevant question to ask is that if you cannot detect them, how can you claim they exist?

To borrow Carl Sagan's metaphor, I have an invisible, incorporeal dragon in my garage.
 
Which part(s) of Radin's book do you want to discuss? Your choice.

Rather than his book, let's have a look at his claims. He says that the reason we won't accept them is because they are very slight and require immense testing. Accordingly, they don't fit things like the MDC, because a protocol is impossible to work out.

Let's put a stake at 5% variance from chance.

You go away and work out a protocol which can accurately reflect that 5% variation. If you come up with something workable, we can present it to Radin for comment. A means of funding it would be helpful as well.

Even doing 1000 coin tosses at each-way odds, you'd hardly be surprised at 525-475. How many thousands of times would it be necessary to repeat that to be classed as "better than chance"? Go away, do the maths.

So, it's homeopo-psi?

Good call!

Instead of being watered down to invisible, Radin is settling for almost invisible. The other reason homeopathy is an excellent comparison is that homeopathy does create a placebo effect. Psi studies concentrating on small changes are easily interpretable as anomalies.

I claim that UFOs carrying intelligent life from other planets are here, but are simply undetectable by current scientific methods. Also, invisible Bigfoots. And Chupacabras.

Is promoting ideas such as these (which differ little from Radin's claims) harmless? I guess it depends on how you define "harm."

Personally, I think that pointing out the silliness of such claims is a positive thing.

I agree, but it's useful to be able to counter facts with facts. Most peer reviews of psi "studies" are carried out by other members of the psi fraternity and there is little independent work.

I think the claims you're comparing it to aren't the same at all. He's not claiming invisibility and he's not claiming fairies - he is saying it's testable and I agree with him. The trouble appears to be that when Richard Wiseman did some serious work on Radin & others' ganzfeld results, the numbers were so small as to be meaningless. To hold the required number of tests would be an enormous undertaking and one which isn't about to happen.

Where is the harm in his claims? Poisoning the well by referring to Sasquatch is all very well, but I fail to see how anyone is going to undergo any kind of harm by having what is almost a deist belief. Deists are quite acceptable in the skeptical world - how does Radin differ?

How can we point out the silliness of the claims if we cannot accurately state what's required to debunk them, let alone provide that evidence?

And what do chupacabras have to do with it? I shot one of them in my garden last week. Braised in a white wine sauce, they're superb.

I think that the relevant question to ask is that if you cannot detect them, how can you claim they exist?

To borrow Carl Sagan's metaphor, I have an invisible, incorporeal dragon in my garage.

Again, that's not quite his claim - he claims that the effects exist and are measurable.

If you can find a realistic way to test his claims - go ahead.
 
I find it difficult to have a problem with people like Dean Radin - his claims are that various forms of psi exist, but that they are so low-powered that scientific testing is virtually impossible.
That isn't what Radin is saying. Rather, he is saying that scientific testing reveals that psi exists. See my review of his book "The Conscious Universe: The Scientific Truth of Psychic Phenomena" at http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1594757&postcount=161
 
Rather than his book, let's have a look at his claims. He says that the reason we won't accept them is because they are very slight and require immense testing. Accordingly, they don't fit things like the MDC, because a protocol is impossible to work out.

Let's put a stake at 5% variance from chance.

You go away and work out a protocol which can accurately reflect that 5% variation. If you come up with something workable, we can present it to Radin for comment. A means of funding it would be helpful as well.

Even doing 1000 coin tosses at each-way odds, you'd hardly be surprised at 525-475. How many thousands of times would it be necessary to repeat that to be classed as "better than chance"? Go away, do the maths.



Good call!

Instead of being watered down to invisible, Radin is settling for almost invisible. The other reason homeopathy is an excellent comparison is that homeopathy does create a placebo effect. Psi studies concentrating on small changes are easily interpretable as anomalies.



I agree, but it's useful to be able to counter facts with facts. Most peer reviews of psi "studies" are carried out by other members of the psi fraternity and there is little independent work.

I think the claims you're comparing it to aren't the same at all. He's not claiming invisibility and he's not claiming fairies - he is saying it's testable and I agree with him. The trouble appears to be that when Richard Wiseman did some serious work on Radin & others' ganzfeld results, the numbers were so small as to be meaningless. To hold the required number of tests would be an enormous undertaking and one which isn't about to happen.

Where is the harm in his claims? Poisoning the well by referring to Sasquatch is all very well, but I fail to see how anyone is going to undergo any kind of harm by having what is almost a deist belief. Deists are quite acceptable in the skeptical world - how does Radin differ?

How can we point out the silliness of the claims if we cannot accurately state what's required to debunk them, let alone provide that evidence?

And what do chupacabras have to do with it? I shot one of them in my garden last week. Braised in a white wine sauce, they're superb.



Again, that's not quite his claim - he claims that the effects exist and are measurable.

If you can find a realistic way to test his claims - go ahead.
I sent an e-mail to Randi about this more than a year ago -- see http://www.internationalskeptics.co...hp?p=2255617&highlight=Dean+Radin#post2255617

Randi replied: "Rodney, to the public and the media, Radin is a nobody. Those I mentioned, are recognized. In another 6 months, we'll see who is next in the tumbrel..."

I responded: "Okay, thanks for the prompt reply. As long as you eventually get around to a ganzfeld challenge with a reasonable protocol, I'll be satisfied."
 
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That isn't what Radin is saying. Rather, he is saying that scientific testing reveals that psi exists.

Yeah, which is exactly what I said - peer reviewed by his buddies at the Parapsychology Foundation.

I sent an e-mail to Randi about this more than a year ago -- see http://www.internationalskeptics.co...hp?p=2255617&highlight=Dean+Radin#post2255617

Randi replied: "Rodney, to the public and the media, Radin is a nobody. Those I mentioned, are recognized. In another 6 months, we'll see who is next in the tumbrel..."

I responded: "Okay, thanks for the prompt reply. As long as you eventually get around to a ganzfeld challenge with a reasonable protocol, I'll be satisfied."

Thanks.

Have you had a reply on a ganzfeld protocol yet?

As regards Radin being a nobody, I asked in the other thread to compare Randi's diary for 2007 to Radin's. Randi's is obviously incomplete, but the events don't look any more startling than Radin's. Comparing them, there's a strange similarity - a lot of preaching to the faithful with a little preaching to the universities & colleges and a couple of major TV appearances.

Randi make Oprah last year?
 
Even doing 1000 coin tosses at each-way odds, you'd hardly be surprised at 525-475. How many thousands of times would it be necessary to repeat that to be classed as "better than chance"? Go away, do the maths.
2047 out of 3900 trials has p=0.001001 close enough to 1/1000.

You could win the MDC by doing this twice while only getting 5% correct psychically.

Testing this does not seem out of the question to me.

IXP
 
Have you had a reply on a ganzfeld protocol yet?
No, and with the Challenge being discontinued in the not-too-distant future, it's pretty obvious that there won't be one. Hopefully, someone may yet apply proposing a ganzfeld protocol, but it's unclear to me whether the Randi Foundation would accept a time-consuming protocol.
 
2047 out of 3900 trials has p=0.001001 close enough to 1/1000.

You could win the MDC by doing this twice while only getting 5% correct psychically.

Testing this does not seem out of the question to me.

IXP
I get your reasoning ok, but I don't know why you think 3900 x 2 tests would be sufficient.

If you did 3900 trials maybe 100 times, you'd have something to show for it, but two seems well light. Can you expand on it a bit?
 
No, and with the Challenge being discontinued in the not-too-distant future, it's pretty obvious that there won't be one. Hopefully, someone may yet apply proposing a ganzfeld protocol, but it's unclear to me whether the Randi Foundation would accept a time-consuming protocol.

Well, as far as I can see, the challenge is in place for almost two more years, so now might be the golden opportunity.
 
Comparing Radin to a liberal Christian is perhaps the most accurate comparison you could make. And, like a liberal Christian, he provides an "umbrella of protection" (to quote Sam Harris) for those like Sylvia Browne and John Edwards in the same way liberals Christians provide protection for the fundies.

We shouldn't be looking to find a middle ground with psychics or religious extremists. All ridiculous claims, no matter how benign they may appear, need to be denounced.
 
Comparing Radin to a liberal Christian is perhaps the most accurate comparison you could make. And, like a liberal Christian, he provides an "umbrella of protection" (to quote Sam Harris) for those like Sylvia Browne and John Edwards in the same way liberals Christians provide protection for the fundies.

Interesting though, that Radin denounces Sylvia Browne, just as Liberal christians denounce fundies.

We shouldn't be looking to find a middle ground with psychics or religious extremists. All ridiculous claims, no matter how benign they may appear, need to be denounced.

Well, maybe you'd like to be the one who ends up working out a protocol to test those claims. In the meantime, what's wrong with the middle ground? If it turned out that a concerted approach by two seemingly opposing factions made some ground against the nutters, would it be a good idea?

I just don't think his claims are that ridiculous. Wrong, sure, but he isn't Jeff Rense or David Icke.
 
Rather than his book, let's have a look at his claims. He says that the reason we won't accept them is because they are very slight and require immense testing. Accordingly, they don't fit things like the MDC, because a protocol is impossible to work out.

No, let's go with his actual claims, where he expands on them: His book, The Conscious Universe.

He does not say that psi is "so low-powered that scientific testing is virtually impossible". Quite contrary.

I know. Because I have the book right here. And, I have read it. Closely.

Do you have it? Have you read it? Even superficially?

Or is this going to be yet another discussion about some claims posted on various websites that do not give us the full story, where we have to make endless corrections from the book?

Let's put a stake at 5% variance from chance.

You go away and work out a protocol which can accurately reflect that 5% variation. If you come up with something workable, we can present it to Radin for comment. A means of funding it would be helpful as well.

Even doing 1000 coin tosses at each-way odds, you'd hardly be surprised at 525-475. How many thousands of times would it be necessary to repeat that to be classed as "better than chance"? Go away, do the maths.

No, you go away and find an actual claim of Radin's. You can find many claims in the book.

Don't start a thread about Radin's claims and then make up something of your own.
 
Actually, anyone who hasn't been in the other thread - this is the article which inspired this thread. Note the comments after the blog itself. Along with some good, considered posts, you'll see a couple of right nutters, including our old friend, George, of Corngods fame!

Not to mention rjh01 giving it to them!

Go, you good thing.
 
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The thing about Dean Radin is that in speaking and writing he's very measured and lucid, but only on topics which I know nothing about. When he speaks about the ganzfeld, as he did earlier this year...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_O9Qiwqew (about fifteen minutes in, iirc)

...I find myself ticking off the misrepresentations he makes. And then I wonder if he doesn't use the same tactics when talking about presentiment.
 

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