David Ray Griffin

[stilicho]

I have been spending some time reading more about David Ray Griffin because I know of his links to panentheism. I have actually seen a renowned panentheist, Marcus Borg, debating the divinity of Jesus and literalism in biblical interpretation with a skilled opponent.

As a consequence, I think I've figured out the motivation behind his awkward conspiracy theories. It isn't money.

Instead, there is a strong brand of 'activist theology' that might even appeal to the rationalists on this board. Along with Griffin and Borg, there are others such as J Dominic Crossan and John Shuck who deconstruct God from omnipotent being to "prime mover" who is available regardless of one's faith or denomination.

Frankly this is heresy.

Plucking an omni-everything being out of mystery and into a malleable reflection of humanity leads to all kinds of problems. For one thing, pastors such as Griffin, Borg, Crossan and Shuck see no problem with converting their pulpits into conveyances for privately-held beliefs about how God doesn't like the United States (or the Western 'consumer culture' in general). Or that God might allow Satan to guide Dick Cheney to blow up the World Trade Center and blame it on Muslim extremists. Or that God doesn't want you to buy an Escalade because he's also the god of native American animists who can't afford one.

I am simplifying all this, naturally, since this is an internet forum and not a thesis jury I am presenting it to. But it concerns me that a theologian might begin from a deconstruction of God to make him fit into a pecular world-view.

 

[Babbylonian]

Conspiracy theorists comprise their own religion. They need believe in nothing apart from vast, omnipotent organizations (well, usually one's enough and CTers just add members as needed) of the rich and powerful (and often Jewish) who leave clues to their plots so subtle that only the CTers can discern them, while the rest of the world sleeps. In fact, I'd say that the CTer would generally accept said omnipotent organization as the vengeful, hateful deity running our lives.

Oh, conspire on ye vengeful Illuminati
Thine power shall wane before our Truth
We wake the fat, the lazy, the content
Purging the evil, slowly but surely.

 

[Brainster]

Nico Haupt likes to say that Griffin's the leader of some Chinese cult. Anything to this? Most of the time, when I check this stuff out, Nico turns out to be right (at least on things that don't actually concern 9-11 but the Denial Movement itself).

There is more than an element of weird cultism around the 9-11 Deniers. You've got Les Jamieson and one of the founders of 911Truth.org belonging to URANTIA, you've got the LaRouche nuts like Tarpley, you've got Barbara "Voices in my head told me to work for Reagan," Honegger. Now of course there are two basic explanations. The non-paranoid one is that those kooky enough to fall for one cult will probably fall for another. And the other is that they're actively working to subvert the 9-11 Deniers.

 

[gumboot]

One thing I find startling is how lame the arguments of the "leaders" of the 9/11 Truth Movement are.

It doesn't surprise me that the senseless teenage/early twenties sheep repeat ad nauseum the same ancient debunked garbage. But take a look some time at Griffin's key lists of aspects of 9/11 that prove a government conspiracy. It's all the usual garbage. Nothing new whatsoever.

-Gumboot

 

[stilicho]

Actually, Griffin's start is not omnipotent anything. He is deconstructing the omnipotent being into a convenience item. He isn't crazy, and there are a lot of "activist" Christians prone to the same ideas that he arrived at.

If I can quickly explain how it works:

There is a great deal of injustice in the world. An omnipotent deity wouldn't let that happen--he would employ his power to stop it. Since he doesn't, he isn't quite omnipotent--just powerful enough to worship. So he's leaving it up to you and me to fix the things he won't fix (takes a willfull decision on his part to let us). If we don't fix it and succumb to "PWELGAS" (anyone with a Christian background knows what that is), then God will "allow" evil forces to take over.

Hence, God is not quite omnipotent but still exists, so all unhappy events are due to ungodly forces who fill the vacuum left by a supremely good deity's unwillingness to intervene.

I wish I had a better opportunity to explain this stuff. An internet forum is a terrible place to do it. But those panentheists I mentioned are not driven by insanity or failure to comprehend physics. They are driven by genuine moral outrage at a world that doesn't realise that "we" made God and not the other way around. Griffin is far closer in his philosophy to sceptics than most people will admit. Who among sceptics here would argue that God is omnipotent?

Griffin doesn't either.

 

[skepticalcriticalguy]

Conspiracy theorists comprise their own religion. They need believe in nothing apart from vast, omnipotent organizations (well, usually one's enough and CTers just add members as needed) of the rich and powerful (and often Jewish) who leave clues to their plots so subtle that only the CTers can discern them, while the rest of the world sleeps. In fact, I'd say that the CTer would generally accept said omnipotent organization as the vengeful, hateful deity running our lives.

Oh, conspire on ye vengeful Illuminati
Thine power shall wane before our Truth
We wake the fat, the lazy, the content
Purging the evil, slowly but surely.

Well, I don't think it's quite that simple.

 

[Architect]

Well, I don't think it's quite that simple.

And comprise doesn't mean what he thinks it means either.

 

[ref]

David Ray Griffin has stated there are 11 charasteristics of controlled demolition found at the WTC. He doesn't provide any calculations to support his statements. He ignores all the calculations proving otherwise. He magically transforms pools of metal into pools of steel in the same sentence. He claims laws of physics were violated, but he doesn't say which laws nor prove these violations in any way. When a law of physics is broken, you surely would have calculations proving these violations, right? Lots of talking, nothing to back it up.

Mr. Griffin. For anyone to take anything you say seriously, you should provide some actual evidence. Not theories. And please, stop lying and twisting the stories so much.

 

[pagan]

Frankly this is heresy.

I certainly hope so, we truthers like to see ourselves as heretics.

While you guys are the uncritical believers in the holy faith

 

[beachnut]

I certainly hope so, we truthers like to see ourselves as heretics.

While you guys are the uncritical believers in the holy faith

No, the truthers are mindless drones, lemmings who did not wait to follow, who have taken the leap into lies that comprise the 9/11 truth movement.

No facts from any members in the entire truth movement. No ability to understand reality and large systems. They meander around and spout lies they discover from idiots who think they run the movement. Not able to think for themselves and totally confused to find the facts from thousands of impendent sources. They thrive on google where the lies seem to dominate the top 200 search results. With no ability to think and reason, yet an incredible ability to believe lies without checking the facts, these fact challenged lemmings move on post after post making themselves feel good by never presenting any facts, but declaring victory as they go leaving bs stream of bits showing up on my monitor.

Yet I ask for facts. The truth movement is silent. …

 

[Babbylonian]

Well, I don't think it's quite that simple.

Of course it is. CTers generate their theories on the basis of an underlying, apparently unprovable assumption and rely on faith and misinterpretation of available facts to support their theories. To me, that spells religion. The fact that y'all dont call the places you congregate "churches" or "synagogues" or "mosques," instead calling them Internet message boards, doesn't make them any less based on faith. The fact that you might use the words "disinfo" instead of "heresy" or "COINTELPRO" instead of "heathen" doesn't change much, either.

And comprise doesn't mean what he thinks it means either.

"Comprise" means exactly what I think it does! Take that!

 

[T.A.M.]

Griffin is basically a more articulate version of Fetzer. He spues the same, tired speculative "omissions" and "what abouts" that have been long debunked. He has nothing new to offer. He is old school in the 9/11 truth movement...a dinosaur.

TAM

 

[pagan]

No, the truthers are mindless drones, lemmings who did not wait to follow, who have taken the leap into lies that comprise the 9/11 truth movement.

No facts from any members in the entire truth movement. No ability to understand reality and large systems. They meander around and spout lies they discover from idiots who think they run the movement. Not able to think for themselves and totally confused to find the facts from thousands of impendent sources. They thrive on google where the lies seem to dominate the top 200 search results. With no ability to think and reason, yet an incredible ability to believe lies without checking the facts, these fact challenged lemmings move on post after post making themselves feel good by never presenting any facts, but declaring victory as they go leaving bs stream of bits showing up on my monitor.

Yet I ask for facts. The truth movement is silent. …

Get back to the doghouse. Did your wife put you there?

We honorable truthers are only driven by facts based on scientific research. We are governed by logic and scientific method.

We do not believe in silly stories and phantasies promoted by the Dubya adm. We do not believe in any sort of authority as you authority suckers.

 

[T.A.M.]

Get back to the doghouse. Did your wife put you there?

We honorable truthers are only driven by facts based on scientific research. We are governed by logic and scientific method.

We do not believe in silly stories and phantasies promoted by the Dubya adm. We do not believe in any sort of authority as you authority suckers.

Stundie Nominee right here...

TAM

 

[pagan]

Stundie Nominee right here...

TAM

Tnx, TAM.

I am honored.

 

[T.A.M.]

sorry man, but never have I seen so many "untruths" in one single statement.

TAM

 

[beachnut]

Get back to the doghouse. Did your wife put you there?

We honorable truthers are only driven by facts based on scientific research. We are governed by logic and scientific method.

We do not believe in silly stories and phantasies promoted by the Dubya adm. We do not believe in any sort of authority as you authority suckers.

Yet we have not seen one fact from your bag of woo, have we?

If the truth movement had any facts they would have a Pulitzer Prize. I would have to say you have no facts, you will never have facts and only the terminally stupid can make up such lies as the 9/11 truth movement does.

You will fail again to state a fact, are you like David Ray Griffin and the truth movement? All talk and no facts.

 

[beachnut]

Stundie Nominee right here...

TAM

I think he can do much better and be a weener if he tries harder! How do they go hundreds of posts with no facts?

yep you are right,

 

[T.A.M.]

Perhaps, but that was pretty high "Shaite per sentence" ratio, you have to agree.

TAM

 

[DarkMagician]

Get back to the doghouse. Did your wife put you there?

Translation: My wife sends me to the doghouse for any small disagreement.

We honorable truthers are only driven by facts based on scientific research.

Translation: We only listen to the people who we can't understand yet still agree with us.

We are governed by logic and scientific method.

Translation: If they use them, we bail.

We do not believe in silly stories and phantasies promoted by the Dubya adm.

Translation: We love Genetic Fallacies.

We do not believe in any sort of authority as you authority suckers.

Translation: We can't get any authority figures to agree with us.