Crazy American-style Siege Unfolding

[gumboot]

So the second day of an increasingly massive police siege is unfolding today in the small city of Napier in the Hawkes Bay region of New Zealand.

Go to any NZ news source and you're bound to find dozens of articles on it.

The New Zealand Herald

Television New Zealand

The Dominion Post

Well you get the idea...

Near as I can tell, it all began with some police conducting a routine drug bust at a property. The owner came home, got himself into a rage, retrieved a firearm, and shot three police officers and a neighbour. One of the officers is dead - his body lying in the front of the house because every time police try to retrieve it they get shot at. The other two officers and the civilian are in a critical condition in hospital.

Apparently the neighbour was shot whilst trying to disarm the gunman and prevent him shooting the police. Brave person.

A fifth victim - a police dog, is believed to be lying dead in the back of a police vehicle.

Since then, the entire area has been sealed off any every imaginable asset has been put into play. The media are reporting several Armed Offender Squads (the equivalent of a SWAT team) and even the deployment of the Police's Special Tactics Group which is a sort of counter-terrorist unit that is rather secretive.

The gunman in question is a former Territorial Army officer (kinda like the National Guard) who allegedly styles himself on "rambo" and has a plethora of firearms and explosives, including homemade machine guns.

To emphasise the seriousness of the whole thing, the news has reported an army bomb squad and several army Light Armoured Vehicles are also on the scene. The NZLAV is sort of a high-tech mix between the US Army Stryker and the USMC LAV25.

The whole thing is frankly, a little surreal. New Zealand just doesn't have incidents like this. Some of you may recall a thread I created about an undercover police officer who was killed here recently after being caught planting a tracking device on a car. You may recall I commented about how rare it is for police officers to be killed here - in our entire history only 29 officers have been killed in the line of duty.

What's truly disturbing is that three of those 29 have been killed in less than a year. I hope the other two officers survive.

So there's an interesting question, and I have no doubt police on the scene are answering it themselves... "What do you do?"

This siege, by all accounts could last days. There's fears the house could be booby-trapped. The guy clearly has no intention of surrendering, and has been taking regular shots at police with multiple calibers of firearm.

I certainly wouldn't want to be on the team that had to go into that place.

 

[WildCat]

Hey, there's wackjobs everywhere. New Zealand has 1/72nd the population the US does, just a matter of time really before someone goes nuts.

Likely he'll blow his own brains out before the police can arrest/shoot him. I hope he doesn't manage to shoot anyone else again.

 

[BTMO]

New Zealand just doesn't have incidents like this.

Yeah, it does.

Aramoana, Raurimu, Batty Road, to name just three.

They happen.

The thing that amazes me is that the police have LAVs sitting there available to do something - but aren't using them. Ok, I understand they want to talk him out - but there are people in houses nearby who can't get out and other people who can't get home.

Tear gas, LAV-down the front door, sniper across the road, problem solved...

The other thing that amazes me is that in NZ, firearms law is designed to reduce the likelihood of things like this happening.

IF the guy is a licenced firearms owner, the police had good reason to execute their warrant armed. They also had a damn good reason to pull his licence and remove any guns they found.

If he didn't then it kind of demonstrates an issue with NZ firearms law.

 

[applecorped]

So the second day of an increasingly massive police siege is unfolding today in the small city of Napier in the Hawkes Bay region of New Zealand.

Go to any NZ news source and you're bound to find dozens of articles on it.

The New Zealand Herald

Television New Zealand

The Dominion Post

Well you get the idea...

Near as I can tell, it all began with some police conducting a routine drug bust at a property. The owner came home, got himself into a rage, retrieved a firearm, and shot three police officers and a neighbour. One of the officers is dead - his body lying in the front of the house because every time police try to retrieve it they get shot at. The other two officers and the civilian are in a critical condition in hospital.

Apparently the neighbour was shot whilst trying to disarm the gunman and prevent him shooting the police. Brave person.

A fifth victim - a police dog, is believed to be lying dead in the back of a police vehicle.

Since then, the entire area has been sealed off any every imaginable asset has been put into play. The media are reporting several Armed Offender Squads (the equivalent of a SWAT team) and even the deployment of the Police's Special Tactics Group which is a sort of counter-terrorist unit that is rather secretive.

The gunman in question is a former Territorial Army officer (kinda like the National Guard) who allegedly styles himself on "rambo" and has a plethora of firearms and explosives, including homemade machine guns.

To emphasise the seriousness of the whole thing, the news has reported an army bomb squad and several army Light Armoured Vehicles are also on the scene. The NZLAV is sort of a high-tech mix between the US Army Stryker and the USMC LAV25.

The whole thing is frankly, a little surreal. New Zealand just doesn't have incidents like this. Some of you may recall a thread I created about an undercover police officer who was killed here recently after being caught planting a tracking device on a car. You may recall I commented about how rare it is for police officers to be killed here - in our entire history only 29 officers have been killed in the line of duty.

What's truly disturbing is that three of those 29 have been killed in less than a year. I hope the other two officers survive.

So there's an interesting question, and I have no doubt police on the scene are answering it themselves... "What do you do?"

This siege, by all accounts could last days. There's fears the house could be booby-trapped. The guy clearly has no intention of surrendering, and has been taking regular shots at police with multiple calibers of firearm.

I certainly wouldn't want to be on the team that had to go into that place.

Pfffft......my neighbor's doing the same thing as we speak.



Gotta go!!!

 

[shadron]

Sorry, Gumboot. We do try to keep these American-style things to ourselves, but we aren't very good at preventing leaks.

In all seriousness, I hope they don't let it go on for days. That's way too much publicity and journalism time. Good luck to those who have to deliver the sharp end.

 

[quarky]

How long before New Zealand gets its own Brittany Spears?

 

[gumboot]

The thing that amazes me is that the police have LAVs sitting there available to do something - but aren't using them.

How would you know what they are or aren't doing with them?

Ok, I understand they want to talk him out - but there are people in houses nearby who can't get out and other people who can't get home.

Oh noes! People can't get home. Quick, put dozens of police into mortal danger!

Tear gas, LAV-down the front door, sniper across the road, problem solved...

Are you serious?

The other thing that amazes me is that in NZ, firearms law is designed to reduce the likelihood of things like this happening.

IF the guy is a licenced firearms owner, the police had good reason to execute their warrant armed. They also had a damn good reason to pull his licence and remove any guns they found.

I don't think armed warrants any time a firearms licence holder is involved is something that's either feasible or something that the public would accept at this point in time.

Police had assessed this guy as a very low risk offender. He was known to police and this was a routine bust.

If he didn't then it kind of demonstrates an issue with NZ firearms law.

That's doesn't seem to make sense. Reports are this guy has homemade machine guns and explosives. How does the presence of these indicate a problem with NZ firearms laws?

I think you're right in that police need to change their procedures, but you have to remember they can only upgrade at a rate that the public allows. Let's not forget that this is a police force that only very recently started wearing stab-proof vests, and there must much public disagreement with that move.

Talk of armed police patrols has met with quite a lot of resistance.

And as the Minister of Police pointed out today, based on the information available fact is if the police executing the warrant had been armed the outcome would most likely have been identical. Unless you're suggesting the AOS should execute all warrants that involve licensed firearms holders - in which case you have an immediate problem because the AOS aren't capable of that level of workload.

 

[Darth Rotor]

How long before New Zealand gets its own Brittany Spears?

That was unkind. I'd not wish that on an enemy, and the Kiwis are not an enemy.

DR

 

[gumboot]

How long before New Zealand gets its own Brittany Spears?

Never. Ever.

 

[gumboot]

The NZ Herald have reported that police have said the guy does not have a firearms license, so that at least addressed that question...

Also the police dog that is believed dead has been named as Fi. I dunno why but I really hate it when police dogs are killed... more so than police officers.

 

[BTMO]

How would you know what they are or aren't doing with them?

Because the area is hip-deep in journalists. Well, "reporters". If they used the LAVs, it would be in the online, radio and tv news in seconds.

Oh noes! People can't get home. Quick, put dozens of police into mortal danger!

They have a LAV...

Are you serious?

Why not? The guy has already demonstrated that he is going to counter every effort to root him out with force - and to me, it seems likely that the longer he stays there, the more likely he is to hurt someone else.

I don't think armed warrants any time a firearms licence holder is involved is something that's either feasible or something that the public would accept at this point in time.

I am a firearms licence holder. One of the reasons they record who has guns is so that, in the event of serving a warrant, they know they may have to face a gun, and plan accordingly. Based on what is known about the guy - he is a "rambo" type, known to police, apparently had access to explosives, either police took a very blase approach to executing the warrant, or the information that they held was effectively useless.

Police had assessed this guy as a very low risk offender. He was known to police and this was a routine bust.

Bingo - "he was known to police". This, by itself, is enough to call in a licence, and to remove any firearms from the house.

That's doesn't seem to make sense. Reports are this guy has homemade machine guns and explosives. How does the presence of these indicate a problem with NZ firearms laws?

NZ firearm laws are about risk minimisation. If he had access to guns and no licence, then the value of licences in minimising risk is limited.

If he had a licence, then the procedures to check licence details before executing a warrant are ineffective.

I think you're right in that police need to change their procedures, but you have to remember they can only upgrade at a rate that the public allows. Let's not forget that this is a police force that only very recently started wearing stab-proof vests, and there must much public disagreement with that move.

Talk of armed police patrols has met with quite a lot of resistance.

And as the Minister of Police pointed out today, based on the information available fact is if the police executing the warrant had been armed the outcome would most likely have been identical. Unless you're suggesting the AOS should execute all warrants that involve licensed firearms holders - in which case you have an immediate problem because the AOS aren't capable of that level of workload.

True - they aren't. However, one of the people who executed the warrant (the dead officer) WAS an AOS member.

Seems kind of silly to use an officer trained and experienced in the use of firearms and dealing with armed offenders, and sending him in unarmed...

 

[BTMO]

The NZ Herald have reported that police have said the guy does not have a firearms license, so that at least addressed that question...

Hmmm....

So ... he has at least two guns, based on media reports, may have more, was known to police, was under observation for weeks, and they STILL went in unarmed?

Amazing.

Also the police dog that is believed dead has been named as Fi. I dunno why but I really hate it when police dogs are killed... more so than police officers.

I don't.

Dogs are lovely animals, but police officers are human beings.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

You have your own Ruby Ridge!

 

[BTMO]

You have your own Ruby Ridge!

Not really.

This is about a guy who was selling drugs, police executed a warrant and he shot three of them, one fatally, and a neighbour.

Ruby Ridge was in an entirely different league.

What is going on in Napier is more like an episode of "Cops" - except that the police response has been more restrained so far.

 

[gumboot]

Because the area is hip-deep in journalists. Well, "reporters". If they used the LAVs, it would be in the online, radio and tv news in seconds.

The police have the area cordoned off and are purposefully preventing the media from knowing what they're doing because they're concerned the offender might be monitoring the media.

In any case you're wrong; the NZ Herald have reported the use of at least one LAV this afternoon, though obviously the purpose of the use is unknown - they reported four people were retrieved in the back of an ambulance, however. More victims? Or trapped residents?

They have a LAV...

And you know the layout of the scene? The approaches to the house? You know the layout of the house itself? Where he may have planted explosives?

You never send police into a situation blind unless you have absolutely no choice. The guy is contained at the moment.

Why not? The guy has already demonstrated that he is going to counter every effort to root him out with force - and to me, it seems likely that the longer he stays there, the more likely he is to hurt someone else.

And the longer the police spend planning any sort of tactical action, the more likely they will pull if off without anyone being injured.

Based on what is known about the guy - he is a "rambo" type, known to police, apparently had access to explosives, either police took a very blase approach to executing the warrant, or the information that they held was effectively useless.

It sounds to me like the police weren't aware of his more extreme "rambo" attitudes - hardly surprising since that's not the sort of thing you'd want the police to know about.

NZ firearm laws are about risk minimisation. If he had access to guns and no licence, then the value of licences in minimising risk is limited.

You're presuming there wouldn't be more such instances if we didn't have licenses. New Zealand has always had a "register the user, not the weapon" approach to firearms. Fact is, regardless of which approach you choose to take, you cannot do anything about unregistered users with unregistered guns. No law can address that, but if you think the solution is to just not bother with any laws at all... well... no.

True - they aren't. However, one of the people who executed the warrant (the dead officer) WAS an AOS member.

Seems kind of silly to use an officer trained and experienced in the use of firearms and dealing with armed offenders, and sending him in unarmed...

You do realise that all AOS officers spend most of their time functioning as normal police officers, right? Are you saying all AOS officers should perform all of their non-AOS duties armed?

You actually think the NZ public would be okay with that?

(Aside from it immediately identifying which police are AOS members, which is something the police go to great lengths to keep secret)

Bottom line is this.

1) The New Zealand public do not want armed police.
2) The New Zealand police do not want to be an armed police force.
3) As a result of 1) and 2) New Zealand police only use firearms in specific instances where specific intelligence indicates the likelihood of firearms.

End result of that is going to be incidents like yesterday. Eventually there will be a tipping point where either 1) or 2) or both will change. My sincere hope is that it happens before any more police officers get gunned down.

It's worth noting that of the 29 police killed in the line of duty, the overwhelming majority were attending a routine call-out at the time, with no indication that there was any particular danger involved.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I don't think armed warrants any time a firearms licence holder is involved is something that's either feasible or something that the public would accept at this point in time.

Police had assessed this guy as a very low risk offender. He was known to police and this was a routine bust.

This is a large part why there are often two classes of busts, no risk, and risky. The latter tend to get the SWAT treatment.

 

[plumjam]

Remote-controlled bulldozer. Job's a good 'un.

 

[gumboot]

Remote-controlled bulldozer. Job's a good 'un.

It's worth point out that it's not the Police's job to kill people. Any armed stand off that ends with the offender being killed is not a success. Their job is to secure suspects alive so that they can be put to trial in a court.

Word is the police are in sporadic contact with the offender. As long as they have open lines of communication and no civilians are at risk, I don't expect them to take any serious action to end this violently.

Some of the pictures available show a LAV with a dozer blade on the front of it, so I suspect the suggestion you've made is something along the lines of what they're thinking!

 

[linusrichard]

How long before New Zealand gets its own Brittany Spears?

That was unkind. I'd not wish that on an enemy, and the Kiwis are not an enemy.

DR

Never. Ever.

Leave Britney alone






...alone in the desert somewhere... with inadequate supplies, and no recording equipment...

 

[BTMO]

The police have the area cordoned off and are purposefully preventing the media from knowing what they're doing because they're concerned the offender might be monitoring the media.

Yes, I know. They are doing a lot of stuff.

However, the guy they have holed up effectively has several hostages - the people trapped in the houses nearby. One of the neighbours was quoted in the papers this evening - apparently, he is randomly *shooting* into the houses nearby.

This doesn't sound contained to me.

And no - the NZ public don't want police patrolling with guns - yet I notice that a lot of them seem pretty happy to have cops in their street with Bushmasters and Glocks when they need them - and they need them now.

You also mentioned that it isn't the police's job to kill people.

The STG is in Napier - this is the team that shot and killed David Gray at Aramoana some years ago - sometimes, the only way to defend the public IS to shoot someone.

You mention that any standoff that ends with an offender dead isn't a success - I place higher value on the other members of the public than that.

NZ houses are made out of wood. A random shot would *easily* pass through a house and kill someone - should he start shooting again.

The army have gone in today with their LAV - to pick up a sick resident in the street. Suppose they don't get to the next one in time?

Finally - do I know the layout of the street and the house? Nope. I am not there. However, there are pretty good images of it on google earth.

As for the house itself? Speculation.

How bombproof are LAVs?