Counter Culture Conspiracy

[solidslade]

I'm quite alarmed at the rate some of these CTers ideas can spread.

and it's spreading like wildfire. I've just been recently reading into the whole truther movement, and quite shocked people put this amount of time, energy and thought into this fantasy realm they believe.

I used to serve in the Marines, and 9/11 was a reason I joined. I'm quite shocked as to how these CTers can have the audacity to fly in the face of proven research and historical evidence, and implicitly call every single enlistee since 9/11 a "tool" for believing the official timeline of Black Tuesday.


I'll offer my own "conspiracy theories" so to speak. Feel free to flame me.


1. There's a massive movement of young, impressionable academica types that intend to warp History out of context.

2. It's all about money : these CTers have no shame and it's loudest voices wanna make a quick buck off of the sleaze and at the same time corrupting history. The faster they can sell their shirts, coffee mugs, books and DVDs, the better. Again capitalizing on the counter culture ideal, believing alternative theories is a "hip" thing to do, it's acceptable.

3. Counter Culture is being shaped into some separate entity believing a malevolent universe : a juxtoposed history, its own timeline, its own worldview, even its own form of "Logic" and ethical discourse (Disinformation, "Asking questions is cool", Denial.)

4. These theories seem to be tailorfit for 18-25 year old males, barring national distinction. The demographic first to die in any war, first to lose it's civil rights and the best source of angst, raw anger, aggression and paranoia. Refer to Fight Club for details.

 

[G-K-4]

Those are some good points. But I would say that you're noticing something that's actually been in the background of American society for a while.

The 9/11 "Truth" movement seems to me to be as across-the-spectrum as we are here in JREF. But I have noticed that the "truthers" have a large and well-established contingent that comes from the far right. I mean REALLY far right, like the militia movement types. That's not all of them, of course, but they seem to have an important role.

There is a thread of 9/11 conspiracy argument that goes back to the same old "counter culture" that the militias drew from. And their roots go back to 19th and 20th century conspiracy theories about "the New World Order", paranoia about international think tanks and discussion groups, and fear of Freemasons, Illuminati, and Jews.

This might not be all of them, but that contingent seems to have been there from the beginning. They've had a publishing industry for more than a hundred years. Not all conservatives think this way, to be sure, but a noisy minority on the edge do, and have done for generations.

 

[Foolmewunz]

But the right wing is only a part of the movement. I actually have more faith in the young of America, so hope the Truthers keep showing up places looking like black-shirted thugs. It automatically turns a lot of people away.

I've found as many of them to be neo-left. There's a large part of the old peace movement out there longing for a rallying cause like the Viet Nam war gave in the 60's and 70's. It's a catchall movement, and it's bound to get into the variations of cannibalism we're starting to see. How can someone from the Fuzzy Wuzzy Workers Party get out there and march to the same drum as the guy from the Joos Are Poisoning Your Mind Club?

 

[G-K-4]

But the right wing is only a part of the movement.

Unfortunately (for my side of the aisle) that is all too true.

I've found as many of them to be neo-left. There's a large part of the old peace movement out there longing for a rallying cause like the Viet Nam war gave in the 60's and 70's.

The anti-war folks and pacifists should have enough to do what with the Iraq and Afghanistan Wars and all. But I think that some of the anti-war folks on the center-left (your basic liberals) believe that (1) if they could prove that 9/11 was in inside job, then (2) the whole country would be outraged and withdraw support from both the Bush administration and the wars.

But those things have already happened without the help of the troofers.

I think that this conspiracy theory might also appeal to them in that they get to witness to people without doing the harder work of counter-recruitment, blockading recruiting centers, or electoral organizing.

It's a catchall movement, and it's bound to get into the variations of cannibalism we're starting to see. How can someone from the Fuzzy Wuzzy Workers Party get out there and march to the same drum as the guy from the Joos Are Poisoning Your Mind Club?

Ooh, I don't think those "Worker's Parties" are fuzzy wuzzy. They are farther to the left than the liberals. In fact they're part of the authoritarian far left.

It does kind of surprise me that they haven't caught on to the 9/11 conspiracy meme. The authoritarian leftists usually have a limited view of things, where there are only two sides and "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". That's why some of these parties have stupidly supported Saddam Hussein and Slobodan Milosevic. They also get wound up about the Isreali occupation of the West Bank and Gaza (but they still see it one-dimensionally), so you'd think they would fall for the anti-Semitic stuff.

But from what I've read on the Loose Change forum, the loosers are getting negative receptions when they witness to World Can't Wait planning meetings.

Maybe that's a good thing.

 

[Foolmewunz]

By "fuzzy wuzzy" I was trying to connote wishy-washy, i.e. to ignore the old line CP, Fourth Int'l, etc.... Who have morphed into the new generation of parties and organizations. Nope - they're not in the least bit tenuous, I'm aware of that.

The point I was trying to make is that big tent peace movement in the 60's encompassed just about every left-leaning ideology. Sometimes to results of in-fighting, but more often with clenched-teeth, they marched together.
I think you're a lot more likely today to see the troofers show up at any sort of anit-Bush rally than you are to see the Worker's of The World delegation show up at a Dylan Avery speech.

As to the main theme of the OP, I feel from a purely subjective viewpoint that there's a need to belong to something in many people. I've had conversations with people from the generations just after my own, who longed to be a part of that accident of timing that I took part in. I think there's a romanticism to being a part of the counter-culture that appeals to some.

 

[R.Mackey]

2. It's all about money : these CTers have no shame and it's loudest voices wanna make a quick buck off of the sleaze and at the same time corrupting history. The faster they can sell their shirts, coffee mugs, books and DVDs, the better. Again capitalizing on the counter culture ideal, believing alternative theories is a "hip" thing to do, it's acceptable.

I personally think this point is quite valid.

The 9/11 Denial movement strikes me as rather similar to frauds such as Kevin Trudeau, in that the proponents are all about publicity, aimed at selling you "secrets that They^TM don't want you to know." Just as an example, Dylan Avery often brags about his DVD sales, and Alex Jones has an entire series of books and videos for sale. We know these people through their products, not through their contributions. That's telling.

I have real trouble taking the 9/11 Denial movement as a serious social movement for two reasons:

1. All of their activities are entirely self-promotional. I see no evidence of public demonstrations that are not linked to hocking videos or other products.

2. None of their efforts are satisfied with "making people think." They insist that you learn more, but only from their own sources. The members of the movement themselves brook no dissent and will go to extreme lengths to ignore conflicting or complicating evidence. Go register on the Loose Change forum if you want a first-hand example.

Compare this to a real social movement. So these guys don't like President Bush, the Patriot Act, etc. Guess what, neither do I. Neither do a lot of people. I've seen any number of demonstrations, protests, public spectacles opposing our current administration and its policies. I've even participated in one or two.

You don't need to make up lies about the Government in order to protest. There are plenty of things to dislike all by itself.

A real social activist will always work for education. I hold up the Orange Revolution in the Ukraine as an example. If you want change, motivate people by giving them the facts. All this crap about armed insurrection is entirely premature. Civil disobedience comes waaaaay before rebellion.

That's not what we see with the 9/11 Denial crowd. They obscure facts, ignore evidence, resist any and all education. There's not a single Ghandi or Malcolm X in the whole pack. I have yet to see them out demonstrating, aside from their self-infatuated movies of lurking around Ground Zero heckling tourists to buy their DVDs.

But don't forget there are some real, seriously paranoid people there as well. That's where the armed uprising comments are coming from. In my opinion, these fringe elements are, quite frankly, dangerous. But I also don't think they speak for the group as a whole. We'll see.

 

[MG1962]

I agree with the OP - and think a couple of other elements need to be considered.

The CT movement feels a little to well organised - while the vast number of these people are believing what they hear. I fear there is an element in co-ordination at some level. I would almost go as far to consider 5th columnist activity.

The other thing that's suprised me, I did a little research into other great calamities of history. Seems many of them where tainted by conspiracy theories.

The most remarkable is the Great Fire Of London. There was strong belief at the time that it was a Papist plot. And the last memory of this was not removed till the 1860's when a monument was changed, removing coments about defeating to Papists

Other great events to be caught up in conspiracy - The Wright Brothers not being the first to fly. The Titanic, even Hilarys climbing of Everest has been subject to counter claims

 

[MG1962]

There's not a single Ghandi or Malcolm X in the whole pack. I have yet to see them out demonstrating, aside from their self-infatuated movies of lurking around Ground Zero heckling tourists to buy their DVDs.

I have challenged them directly on this point. The silence was deafening, although I was amused at a claim Ghandi was a pawn of the NWO.

I cant speak for others - and I am certainly no hero, however if for a second I thought my government was capable of this sort of behaviour. I would be moving heaven and Earth to bring it down

 

[R.Mackey]

I have challenged them directly on this point. The silence was deafening, although I was amused at a claim Ghandi was a pawn of the NWO.

Unbelieveable, the ignorance of some people.

Don't people read anymore? Or heck, even Google the guy, that'd be a start.

 

[G-K-4]

1. All of their activities are entirely self-promotional. I see no evidence of public demonstrations that are not linked to hocking videos or other products.

2. None of their efforts are satisfied with "making people think." They insist that you learn more, but only from their own sources.

Hm. Maybe all they need now is a hack sci-fi writer and tax-exempt status, and they could found their own religion. Squibology, or something.

Another thing I find interesting is their desire to promote "the truth". I'm not sure exactly how Christianity has used "And the truth shall make you free", but I hear an evangelizing and bolstering tone. That makes sense in a religion or spiritual practice, but I don't see how it works in conspiracy theory. Knowing that Jesus loves you may help get you through Roman torture, but knowing that Dick Cheney hired the 19 hijackers isn't going to keep "NWO shocktroops" from locking you up in Guantanamo.

Also, the Loose Change video company is called "Louder Than Words", but they don't take any real action. It's all talk, in fact talking about talking as when they promote another investigation into 9/11. I think their goal is to grandstand in front of a national television audience to promote their memes and increase the number of customers/followers. Assuming that the investigation hearings will be official and thus get the most publicity. (Which of course would not make sense coming from them.)

Indeed, as you say, it is a self-publicity machine.

 

[G-K-4]

The other thing that's suprised me, I did a little research into other great calamities of history. Seems many of them where tainted by conspiracy theories.

The most remarkable is the Great Fire Of London. There was strong belief at the time that it was a Papist plot. And the last memory of this was not removed till the 1860's when a monument was changed, removing coments about defeating to Papists.

The Great Fire of 1666? I hadn't heard that! Where did you read about that? I'd like to read more.