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Constitutional Law Help!

Lurker

Illuminator
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May 15, 2002
Messages
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Help!

I am discussing Constitutional law with a nutter. She says that states can pass laws contrary to the Bill of Rights. I say that is ridiculous.

Specifically, she says only the federal government is halted from declaring a federal religion but states could declare a state religion.

Constitutional scholars out there, point me to where it denies this.

Thanks!

Lurker
 
Lurker said:
Help!

I am discussing Constitutional law with a nutter. She says that states can pass laws contrary to the Bill of Rights. I say that is ridiculous.

Specifically, she says only the federal government is halted from declaring a federal religion but states could declare a state religion.

Constitutional scholars out there, point me to where it denies this.

Thanks!

Lurker

This was true...about 150 years ago. 14th Amendment:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United State
http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Amend.html
 
From ELK GROVE UNIFIED SCHOOL DISTRICT ET AL. v. NEWDOW ET AL., also known as the "Pledge case," we have the following from Justice Thomas in his opinion concurring in the judgment:
I accept that the Free Exercise Clause, which clearly protects an individual right, applies against the States through the Fourteenth Amendment. [Citation omitted.] But the Establishment Clause is another matter. The text and history of the Establishment Clause strongly suggest that it is a federalism provision intended to prevent Congress from interfering with state establishments. Thus, unlike the Free Exercise Clause, which does protect an individual right, it makes little sense to incorporate the Establishment Clause.
...
The Establishment Clause does not purport to protect individual rights. By contrast, the Free Exercise Clause plainly protects individuals against congressional interference with the right to exercise their religion, and the remaining Clauses within the First Amendment expressly disable Congress from “abridging [particular] freedom.” (Emphasis added.) This textual analysis is consistent with the prevailing view that the Constitution left religion to the States. See, e.g., 2 J. Story, Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States § 1873 (5th ed. 1891); see also Amar, The Bill of Rights, at 32–42; id., at 246–257. History also supports this understanding: At the founding, at least six States had established religions [Citation omitted].... Quite simply, the Establishment Clause is best understood as a federalism provision—it protects state establishments from federal interference but does not protect
any individual right.
...
As strange as it sounds, an incorporated Establishment Clause prohibits exactly what the Establishment Clause protected—state practices that pertain to “an establishment of religion.”
This represents Justice Thomas's own opinion (and is possibly reflective of Justice Scalia's view as well). It does not have the force of law, however.

The prevailing view is that states cannot establish a religion. In fact, Justice Thomas's opinion recognizes that this is the prevailing view, but he personally disagrees with it.

In terms of individual rights, it is clear that states cannot act contrary to the Bill of Rights, because of the 14th Amendment.
 
Lurker said:
I am discussing Constitutional law with a nutter. She says that states can pass laws contrary to the Bill of Rights. I say that is ridiculous.

Okay:

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

So, if something is prohibited to the States, the States can't do it. Arguable when Amendment II says "...the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed," it could be read as restricting the states, too. However, Amendment I specifically states, "CONGRESS shall make no law...," so the states would NOT be restricted from establishing religion, for example.

As pointed out by others, Amendment XIV changes all of this.

Specifically, she says only the federal government is halted from declaring a federal religion but states could declare a state religion.

She WAS right, before Amendment XIV was passed. But that's not the case anynmore.
 
Thanks Shanek. I had skimmed hte Constitution looking for where it said that the States could not contradict hte Consitution and must have missed it, hidden awy there in the 14th.

All clear for me now. Thanks! If she comes back with something else I may be back.

Lurker
 
Actually she was wrong and right since the US Constitution declares itself the "supreme law of the land."

However, there is theory and there is practice.

The US fought its bloodiest war--lost far more than we have lost in Iraq in single idiotic charges!--over "state's rights" among other things.

The XIV Amendment made the issue definitive.

With her specific question one could argue that "Congress shall make no law. . . ." does not refer to States prior to XIV--and in practice one can argue that states did have established acceptable religion--such as baring atheists or certain religions from holding office.

A state can make the law, but then the state courts or the federal courts can decide whether or not it violates the state and/or US Constitution--though the Feds do not interpret a state's constitution as far as I know . . . though I imagine a state could pass an amendment that is contrary to the US Constitution and be declared "unconstitutional!"

Why all of this stuff is so much fun. . . .

--J.D.
 
And states can pass laws 'contrary' in the sense that they could give *more* liberties than the Constitution explicitly calls for,

For example, a state could write a law saying that no warrant shall be issued except on 3 affidavits, whereas the Constitution makes no such demand.
 
By contrast, the Free Exercise Clause plainly protects individuals against congressional interference with the right to exercise their religion, and the remaining Clauses within the First Amendment expressly disable Congress from “abridging [particular] freedom.”


If one religion (belief in God) is given a venue by the federal or local government, but not to others, wouldn't this mean congressional interference against the "other's" right to express their religion?

Like saying, no one can proclaim their religion in this venue...unless they are theistic.
 
daenku32 said:
If one religion (belief in God) is given a venue by the federal or local government, but not to others, wouldn't this mean congressional interference against the "other's" right to express their religion?
Put another way, couldn't the Establishment Clause be deemed an individual "freedom from religion" right? Since Establishment is often accompanied by discrimination against--and too often outright persecution of--those who don't go along with the "official" religion, it would seem that a case can be made that individual religious liberty is very much protected by the Establishment Clause.

And there is something that seems distinctly unamerican about having a state endorse a religious belief in today's climate, even if freedom of religious exercise is guaranteed to people who fall under the jurisdiction of the state. It's as though a state were to say to the people, for example, "This is a Christian state. If you want to be a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist, that's fine, go ahead and be a Jew or a Muslim or a Buddhist; but keep in mind that this is a Christian state. We'll tolerate you as long as you keep your wrong-headed religion to yourselves." Now, there are some folks who call themselves Christians who think that such a thing would be just peachy, but their perspective might change if the state said "This is a Catholic state" or "This is a Mormon state" or "This is an atheist state."
 
Lurker said:
Thanks Shanek. I had skimmed hte Constitution looking for where it said that the States could not contradict hte Consitution and must have missed it, hidden awy there in the 14th.

Actually, it's paragraph 2 of Article VI that does that. The 14th Amendment was needed because the Bill of Rights did not specify its limitations as going to the states as well.

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.
 
Doctor X said:
The US fought its bloodiest war--lost far more than we have lost in Iraq in single idiotic charges!--over "state's rights" among other things.

The XIV Amendment made the issue definitive.

And it was actually a condition of the states reentering the union. They weren't allowed to leave, and they weren't allowed back in without ratifying the 14th Amendment (and changing their state Constitutions as well), leading many to believe that, since it was passed under duress, it should be considered invalid.
 
Brown said:
Put another way, couldn't the Establishment Clause be deemed an individual "freedom from religion" right? Since Establishment is often accompanied by discrimination against--and too often outright persecution of--those who don't go along with the "official" religion, it would seem that a case can be made that individual religious liberty is very much protected by the Establishment Clause.

I think this is a promising line -- Thomas actually pointed out a very interesting line of thought, because in my own head I have always conflated the free exercise clause with the establishment clause, but they could be read separately -- not stopping a state establishment of an "official" religion as long as it did not interfere with the free exercise of others.

Without researching, I am not inclined to buy that argument, but it is a very interesting approach. I wish I had more free time to look at it -- it would make a good law review article.

N/A
 

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