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Conservatives move closer still to Labour

Darat

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Darat
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Not their poll ratings but on education policy:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6658613.stm

The Conservatives are to abandon their support for grammar schools by saying academic selection is unfair to poorer families and limits social mobility.

...snip...

The experiences children have had by the age of 11 are so different that it is a fantasy that you can somehow fairly distinguish between them at that age

...snip...
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Nearest I've seen to a policy statement by the Conservatives for some time. It is interesting in that it moves them closer to the traditional Labour position so makes it harder to distinguish the parties by their policies.

At this rate we will no longer be judging who to vote for based on policies but simply based on who we think can most effectively implement the same policies.


His full speech can be found here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6662219.stm

It's in his speech itself that I'm more interested in - I like how he highlights this:

...

What has happened to social mobility?

Opportunity and mobility are key watchwords in British politics. But whilst we politicians bandy these words about, meanwhile, under our noses, we appear to have been going backwards. The evidence comes from economists such as Paul Gregg and Jo Blanden. They compare two cohorts born in 1958 and 1970. They worked out the chances of your being trapped in poverty if you were born in the bottom twenty per cent in either of those two years. They found that between 1958 and 1970 the chances of those low income kids getting stuck in the bottom fifth rose from 31% to 36% whilst their chance of making it to the top quintile fell from 19% to 16%.

...
Click to expand...

Really recommend you read his speech - it's very interesting.
 
Darat said:
Not their poll ratings but on education policy:




Nearest I've seen to a policy statement by the Conservatives for some time. It is interesting in that it moves them closer to the traditional Labour position so makes it harder to distinguish the parties by their policies.

At this rate we will no longer be judging who to vote for based on policies but simply based on who we think can most effectively implement the same policies.


His full speech can be found here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6662219.stm

It's in his speech itself that I'm more interested in - I like how he highlights this:

Really recommend you read his speech - it's very interesting.
Click to expand...
Question: is this considered to be primarily a matter of education policy, or education policy as one of a significant handful of influential factors?

Again, thanks for yet another quality link.

ETA: Grrr, meant to Preview. :(

This point seems, in context, to be a comment on education policy.

Well educated women tend to marry well educated men and both go on to earn more than people without a university education so this also made the distribution of income across British families more unequal.
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DR
 
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I love how he wants to abolish grammar schools because they are "unfair to poorer families". So...let's disadvantage middle class kids to make sure everyone's on an even footing!

Brilliant. Oh, and in favour of Academies, too. Even more brilliant.
 
tkingdoll said:
I love how he wants to abolish grammar schools because they are "unfair to poorer families". So...let's disadvantage middle class kids to make sure everyone's on an even footing!
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That was one of the points of contention in the US, in the 1960's and 1970's over the infamous "school bussing" programs that boiled down to this: rather than raise the bar, and the resourcing needed to raise that bar for schools in poorer districts, a cheap, cosmetically appealing solution was adopted.

That in turn was a catalyst, or a cause celebre, for the 1980's "school voucher" program that was similarly based on not investing where it matters.

Some policy problems across the pond appear strikingly similar.

Brilliant. Oh, and in favour of Academies, too. Even more brilliant.
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What about these Academies (I are a Yank) is sub optimal in your view? Is it the "cosmetic versus substantive" issue?

DR
 
perhaps the labour and conservative parties could look into a merger.....
 
Darth Rotor said:
Question: is this considered to be primarily a matter of education policy, or education policy as one of a significant handful of influential factors?

Again, thanks for yet another quality link.

ETA: Grrr, meant to Preview. :(

This point seems, in context, to be a comment on education policy.

DR
Click to expand...

Education has been one of the big policy divides in UK Politics for, well pretty much since the Labour Party was formed so a hundred years or so. One of the areas that separated the two was the idea that everyone should be entitled to the same education or not. This latest policy shift would seem to indicate the two parties have now come to really the same conclusion - preferential selection is not good for society, and only re-enforces inequality in outcomes for the poor and not-so-poor.

tkingdoll said:
I love how he wants to abolish grammar schools because they are "unfair to poorer families". So...let's disadvantage middle class kids to make sure everyone's on an even footing!

Brilliant. Oh, and in favour of Academies, too. Even more brilliant.
Click to expand...

No he's not talking about abolishing any existing grammar schools - just not creating more.

His support for Academies seems to stem from the idea (as Blair and Brown hold) that somehow they can be created quicker and with better results rather than allowing local authorities to provide new schools - as far as I am concerned this is an article of faith, it's the idea of the "market" being applied to a non-market situation.
 
I should add of course that Labour had already moved from its traditional position - so if the Tories had been talking about this 15 years ago it would have been to the right of Labour policy of the time.
 
Darat said:
His support for Academies seems to stem from the idea (as Blair and Brown hold) that somehow they can be created quicker and with better results rather than allowing local authorities to provide new schools - as far as I am concerned this is an article of faith, it's the idea of the "market" being applied to a non-market situation.
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This seems quite similar to the current US wrangle over education policy. The much ballyhooed voucher system is an example of your last point.

I am not convinced of the voucher system being a solution at other than a political level.

Depending on where you live in this country, an increasingly common answer to disgust with the educational system is home schooling. Is it on the rise in the UK? No matter home schooling's merits, it is no answer for single parent households, poor folks with dual working spouse, and or multi jobs households, etc.

FWIW: my next door neighbor's kids are home schooled, with the intent of avoiding the average (not bad, not great) middle school (grades 6-8) in our district. You guessed it, they are not poor.

DR
 
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Darat said:
His support for Academies seems to stem from the idea (as Blair and Brown hold) that somehow they can be created quicker and with better results rather than allowing local authorities to provide new schools - as far as I am concerned this is an article of faith, it's the idea of the "market" being applied to a non-market situation.
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The cross party support for City Academies has nothing to do with market forces or speedier set up times, and have everything to do with the fact that they are a great vehicle for hiding public sector liabilities off balance sheet with regards to the PSBR.
 
brodski said:
The cross party support for City Academies has nothing to do with market forces or speedier set up times, and have everything to do with the fact that they are a great vehicle for hiding public sector liabilities off balance sheet with regards to the PSBR.
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Now I'm cynical but not quite that cynical - albeit I do believe that is part of it. Did you read Willets' comments about them?
 
brodski said:
The cross party support for City Academies has nothing to do with market forces or speedier set up times, and have everything to do with the fact that they are a great vehicle for hiding public sector liabilities off balance sheet with regards to the PSBR.
Click to expand...

seems like the same reason that Labour are so keen to have private sector built and run hospitals, which are then leased back to the NHS.... :rolleyes:
 
Darth Rotor said:
...snip...

Depending on where you live in this country, an increasingly common answer to disgust with the educational system is home schooling. Is it on the rise in the UK? No matter home schooling's merits, it is no answer for single parent households, poor folks with dual working spouse, and or multi jobs households, etc.

FWIW: my next door neighbor's kids are home schooled, with the intent of avoiding the average (not bad, not great) middle school (grades 6-8) in our district. You guessed it, they are not poor.

DR
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The numbers of home schoolers in the UK appears to be quite low but nobody quite knows what the figure is! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6389211.stm
 
Darat said:
Now I'm cynical but not quite that cynical - albeit I do believe that is part of it. Did you read Willets' comments about them?
Click to expand...

andyandy said:
seems like the same reason that Labour are so keen to have private sector built and run hospitals, which are then leased back to the NHS.... :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

In the past Ministers have gone on the record that both PFI projects (such as the hospitals AndyAndy mentions) and social housing stock transfers from LA control to Registered Social Landlords ("Housing Associations") are primarily motivated by PSBR rules, as City Academies have the same PSBR advantages, as well as many of the same cost, oversight and organisational disadvantages, it's not that much of a stretch to believe that the primary motivation behind them (apart from them being a Blair pet project) is this PSBR advantage.
 
The phrase the home-schoolers seem to be using is "Education is compulsory, schooling isn't" so by that I take it that home-schooling is perfectly legal. However just keeping your kid away from school is not.
 
Sorry, what suggestion was there that anyone was going to outlaw home schooling? They only dropped plans for a register of home-schooled children.

Which would have been a damn good idea in my opinion. I recall several child abuse cases where children were taken out of school and nobody ever checked to see if they were being properly cared for and educated until it was too late.

Rolfe.
 
Rolfe said:
Sorry, what suggestion was there that anyone was going to outlaw home schooling? They only dropped plans for a register of home-schooled children.

Which would have been a damn good idea in my opinion. I recall several child abuse cases where children were taken out of school and nobody ever checked to see if they were being properly cared for and educated until it was too late.

Rolfe.
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A joke, note the smiley, and a veiled reference to a well worn adage in the US over gun control, which is a matter of policy that is symbolic of an oppressive, overbearing, draconian state meddling in the affairs of its citizens.

The article did note the concern about home schooling and the use of it as a dodge to avoid exposing child abuse. Out of sight, out of mind, right?

Your use of anecdote to support draconian policy is noted.

DR
 
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