Confirmations? We Don't Need No Stinking Confirmations!

[Brainster]

Kevin Ryan, trying to get out in front of a pretty disastrous story for the Truthers, admits that he and Steven Jones are not cooperating with an independent effort to confirm or refute their nanothermite results.

I wrote back to the sampler and suggested to him that Corley could probably obtain his own WTC dust samples. After all, Corley had supposedly waded through WTC dust for months. Why was he asking for our samples?

So far the comments over there are supportive, but I suspect that this will raise some objections from more responsible members of the Troof Movement, like John Albanese, who expressed his concern over whether the thermite residue had been confirmed in a thread at Truth Move.

Has Jones submitted his paper, along with samples, to independent labs for verification?

no - he has not.

Are we to simply take his word - as an article of faith? Many in the movement do. But - if we are having a truly objective discussion on this subject - lets be real here. Dr. Jones' paper has not yet been independently verified. And - claiming it is DENIAL - akin to people's resistance to global warming - is not an altogether intellectually honest comparison.

This should be interesting to watch.

 

[T.A.M.]

Very Very interesting. Like I (and others) have said many times, if he wants ANYONE in the scientific community to take him seriously (and maybe he doesn't care), S. Jones HAS TO submit his samples for INDEPENDENT analysis. If it proves that he is correct, it adds a TREMENDOUS amount of credibility to his work, so what is the problem?

Well we know what the problem is. He knows full well what will happen if a TRULY independent lab gets his samples.

Now one could make the argument that from the truther perspective, Corly is not truly independent, but rather is one of the "baddies".

TAM

 

[MikeW]

It's the truther line that we've expected all along.

"We demand a new investigation!!! But, uh, not by him."

 

[T.A.M.]

It's the truther line that we've expected all along.

"We demand a new investigation!!! But, uh, not by him."

Exactly. Corly is on their list of "In on its" IIRC, so if he is the one to perform the "independent analysis", it really is as bad as us taking henryco's pov as completely independent (which it is not).

As much as I think Corly and many others would be ok to do such, the truthers, as usual, will cry foul.

That is unless Corly is just demanding such, and is not going to be part of the "independent analysis" itself.

TAM

 

[Josarhus]

Jones and Harrit have problem sending their samples to anybody for independent analysis, since they are out of dust.

Harrit admitted half a year ago that they have nothing left except "a spoonful of one of the proper samples" and that sample will only be handed over to some one “serious”

Harrit at the same time said that getting verification is not important, since there are 8 or 9 other reasons for thermite being used on 9/11.

 

[ElMondoHummus]

Very Very interesting. Like I (and others) have said many times, if he wants ANYONE in the scientific community to take him seriously (and maybe he doesn't care), S. Jones HAS TO submit his samples for INDEPENDENT analysis. If it proves that he is correct, it adds a TREMENDOUS amount of credibility to his work, so what is the problem?

Before he'd take that step, I'd still insist that he'd need to acknowledge the gross analytic and methodologic errors in his work. While I very much welcome an independent analysis, I'm concerned that a failure to confront those problems would make people think he was honestly mistaken rather than driven to wrong due to his agenda. His work is wrong and error-filled on its on merits, regardless of what independent work ends up determining. And he drove it in that direction because of his desire to "prove" the presence of thermite.

Don't get me wrong, TAM, I do agree with you. It's just that I think there's another step that's necessary for him to be truly honest.

 

[T.A.M.]

Jones and Harrit have problem sending their samples to anybody for independent analysis, since they are out of dust.

Harrit admitted half a year ago that they have nothing left except "a spoonful of one of the proper samples" and that sample will only be handed over to some one “serious”

Harrit at the same time said that getting verification is not important, since there are 8 or 9 other reasons for thermite being used on 9/11.

Verification is not important. That is the ultimate stundie. Spoken like a true PSEUDOscientist. He should be forced to hand over any degrees he holds.

disgusting.

TAM

 

[T.A.M.]

Before he'd take that step, I'd still insist that he'd need to acknowledge the gross analytic and methodologic errors in his work. While I very much welcome an independent analysis, I'm concerned that a failure to confront those problems would make people think he was honestly mistaken rather than driven to wrong due to his agenda. His work is wrong and error-filled on its on merits, regardless of what independent work ends up determining. And he drove it in that direction because of his desire to "prove" the presence of thermite.

Don't get me wrong, TAM, I do agree with you. It's just that I think there's another step that's necessary for him to be truly honest.

Absolutely, but that would be in a world where pseudoscientists admitted they were wrong...ain't gonna happen. So given that, I think the next best thing to knock these guys down to where they belong (just under the gum on the bottom of my shoe) we need an independent analysis of their dust to show the world, including the sheeple of the truth movement, that their "scientific" leaders are frauds.

TAM

 

[The Big Dog]

Am I missing the part where they voluntarily and eagerly provide their samples to all comers in the hopes of getting the TRUTH?

Bunch of unemployed and unemployable losers looking out for their next free plane ticket and complimentary room service.

 

[Oystein]

Jones and Harrit have problem sending their samples to anybody for independent analysis, since they are out of dust.
...

How can they be out of dust when they basically only analysed a few nano-sized grains??

ETA: If I were to design my study of the dust samples, the VERY FIRST THING I'd do was to set aside at least half of my samples for follow-up studies - either by myself, but preferably by peers.

 

[fourtoe]

What is up with the original people who supplied the dust? I think there were four...what if they had some dust left over? I wonder how they feel about Jones being too lame to let other scientists use his samples.

I recall in Pat's debate with Avery on 9-10-09 Avery stating that Jones was already looking for independent labs to analyze the samples...was this referring to something else?

 

[Josarhus]

What is up with the original people who supplied the dust? I think there were four...what if they had some dust left over? I wonder how they feel about Jones being too lame to let other scientists use his samples.

As I said, Jones and his friends are out of dust according to Harrit, they only have "a spoonful left" and actually that spoonful is in the possession of Jeanette McKinley. So apparently the only dust left is kept at one of the original people supplying the dust.

Jeanette McKinley here is telling how she used the dust as a flower decorations and other art work, before she handed any of it to Jones in November 2006: (watch from 8. minutes)



So they better be quick, you never know what she will do with the dust next.

 

[T.A.M.]

How convenient that soon they will run out of dust, making their result for ever more unverifiable. Like I (and others) have said. Jones doesn't want his results "checked", he cares not for "verification" because he and the others know they would not get such "verification" but just the opposite, if their samples were independently analyzed.

I am betting, from their perspective, good riddance to any further samples of the dust.

TAM

 

[fitzgibbon]

How convenient that soon they will run out of dust, making their result for ever more unverifiable. Like I (and others) have said. Jones doesn't want his results "checked", he cares not for "verification" because he and the others know they would not get such "verification" but just the opposite, if their samples were independently analyzed.

I am betting, from their perspective, good riddance to any further samples of the dust.

TAM

C'mon, TAM. You know that Trutherism is as much an article of faith as any mainline religion. Proof is anathema to Trutherism.

 

[Muc]

My Encounter with Richard Gage

Interesting article by a truther who suggested independendent verification of the "nanothermite" findings to Richard Gage during one of his presentations.

... If nano-thermite was used to destroy the towers and it is in all of the dust samples as claimed, one would think those interested in the truth would be very interested in definitively proving this. The way to resolve this dilemma and force the truth out would be to get the dust samples independently verified by labs not directly overseen by the people making the conspiratorial claims.

Richard Gage had an upcoming presentation in my city so I decided to bring this idea up to him during the question and answer session. I asked if he and his colleagues had in their possession the dust samples used to perform Dr. Jones and Dr. Harrit’s analysis. He said that he did along with a number of others. I responded that it would be extremely helpful if these results could be independently verified. I offered to connect him with colleagues in the university who would be interested in performing these tests.

At this point I was excited because I thought we were going to make some exciting progress and I was expecting him to say, yes whatever we can do to get as many people to verify this as possible. He is always keen on referring to the scientific method and one of the hallmarks of scientific research is reproducibility of findings so I thought this would be an easy sell.

So I was quite surprised when Mr Gage became extremely upset. He began stammering for words and after a few moments quietly muttered “Its been verified” and tried to move on to the next question. As I still had the microphone I said that perhaps if he is uncomfortable having a state university doing the testing, with all the “chip-ins” and money being raised there could certainly be a fundraiser to pay an independent lab to analyze the samples and certify the results. He looked at me with intense disgust and continued repeating “its been verified, its been verified” as he forcefully moved on to the next questioner. ...

Gage might have thought the author was a "shill" who sneaked in to embarass him - still, the reaction is quite telling. It's also interesting to read that AE911Truth claims to possess dust samples themselves but don't see it necessary to use any of their financial ressources to have the nanothermite claims independently confirmed by an institution that no one can accuse of being biased (or even let others do it for free, as suggested) which normally should be in the interest of AE911Truth. Once again, it's pretty obvious that Gage himself is nowhere near convinced by the nanothermite claim that he sells as a fact to his followers.

 

[jaydeehess]

How convenient that soon they will run out of dust, making their result for ever more unverifiable. Like I (and others) have said. Jones doesn't want his results "checked", he cares not for "verification" because he and the others know they would not get such "verification" but just the opposite, if their samples were independently analyzed.

I am betting, from their perspective, good riddance to any further samples of the dust.

TAM

Last time other labs checked results that he went to the press with it did not turn out so well IIRC.