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Comments:GREETINGS AND WELCOME TO THE FIRST POST!!!

stoatbringer

Unregistered
S
Wow, trying to read all that made my head hurt.

It's kinda suspicious when people say you can't peek inside their devices. After all, what could you possibly find? Batteries? A hamster on a wheel?

If they truly have a new invention the "lawer" would presumably require you to sign a legally-binding non-disclosure agreement (NDA) first, promising that you won't rush off and sell the details to some power company.

If you can't at least do a basic search for internal power devices, solar cells, etc. how can it possibly be tested properly?
 
Might I suggest the use of colored fonts to denote when the claimants words are being quoted and when your replies are being used?

Also, do the claimants know their emails will be on display here? If they have not signed the challenge no rule really applies?
 
I hope your professor brings a bodyguard or at least a couple of big friends. This guy exhibits symptoms of severe personality disorder.
 
Hmmmm, these rants sound vaguely familiar.

Naw, must be my imagination.

I’m sorry to hear you guys are in ‘deep deep trouble,’ hehe.

The nerve of you fellows, actually wanting to inspect the device before doling out the cash.

It runs with no external energy but you can’t look inside!

Perhaps the challenge itself qualifies as paranormal for it's uncanny ability to attract the mentally unstable.
 
Applicants, upon signing the Challenge agreement (as per Rule #3), agree to allow release of all data, photographic, written and recorded. By applying, they agree to this.

Have I notified the applicant that his threatening email would be posted on the JREF website? No, as there was no requirement to do so. I also cannot find any reasonable means of doing so (especially with THIS applicant) that he would not receive as highly antagonizing. I have enough aggravation.

And I'm 100% certain that he would neglect to notify JREF if he chose to post our correspondence on some poo-poo site.

I'll try to colorize all future correspondences to further illuminate the contrasts between JREF's outgoing emails and the applicant's incoming.
 
Be careful Mr Kramer, it sounds like he's got one of them fancy "We lose the case, you don't pay" lawyers. And they only turn up for the most certain and high-profile of cases. Or Auto-accidents. Or cases where someone slipped on a mop.

And the government...

And God.

He's got everyone on his side!
In fact I might need to check that I'm not actually working for him.

Incidentally I've got one of these machines too. You can't look inside mine either, and you are to ignore the loud noises and smell of petrol coming from inside it.
Cheque will be fine.
 
Well just in case any of you were wondering if this guy was mental or just a bit pissed off? - I quote...

And you know what else, GOD is real, and someday EVERY KNEE shall bow, and every tonge confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD... You can doubt all you want, someday you will stand before him.. I would get to a United Pentecostal Church and learn of him.. And I will say, not GOOD to try to ripoff GODs people.. He keep track..

so there you have it.

Mental me thinks.
 
I think you are making problems for yourself. While this guy is evidently chaotic, you cannot both say you are not interested in how it works and then demand to look inside.

This is unscientific; either you analyze the mode of operation of the device, in which case you cannot claim that you are not interested in explanations, or, you treat it as a black box, measuring input and output, in which case you are not interested in what is inside.

But you cannot have it both ways.

I must say that this apparant lack of professional scientific approach does not appear to benefit the JREF cause.

Or else, I have misunderstood something.

Respectfully,
Hans
 
Hans, suppose I said I could see while blindfolded, and wrote 5 pages of gibberish about chakras and such explaining how I do it. JREF would say "we're not interested in how it works - just prove it." But that doesn't mean that JREF is not going to check if I am peeking around the sides of the blindfold during the test - which of course is how it really 'works'.

JREF doesn't want an explanation of how it works. JREF will make sure that you aren't cheating during the test. In the case of the engine, JREF needs to see if there is a source of energy (battery, say) inside the engine, as that would be a cheat. It's simple.
 
Roger: Sure. But then they have to say so. Anyway, unless the machine is really bulky, since he claims it outputs 120w, running it for a week or two would rule out an internal power source.

Hans
 
His best course is to go ahead and get a patent. That way the ninjas from the Oil Company Police won't get him.
 
I would like to suggest this "log" be posted in what appears to be the newly created forum, "Challenge Applications" where, I assume, members can read the log but would not be able to post to the thread (like I am doing right now.) This would keep each log cleaner and easier to read. All comments on each log could then be posted in the original "Million Dollar Challenge" forum in a seperate thread.
 
stoatbringer said:

If you can't at least do a basic search for internal power devices, solar cells, etc. how can it possibly be tested properly?

I think this machine could be tested without checking the internals.

Remeber E=MC^2.

Modern precise measurements of weight allow to detect the mass loss caused by chemical reactions, e.g. burn wood inside air tight box till it dies of oxygen starvation, then precise measurements will note a difference in weight and thereby mass that is in line with E=MC^2.

I did not understand fully, but it seems that these machine has a output in the order or above normal car batteries or so.

To test correctly you need to get experts on those precise weight measurements and vacuum to design and perform these tests.

Likely they could prove or disprove with the following procedure:

Put the machine inside a box with only the shaft reching outside. Probably several layers of boxes and vacuum pumps are needed to prevent air circulation through the small space between boxes and shaft.

Let this composition run for 3 months+.

Determine the weight of the machine during the entire process.

If the weight drops during the time measurable, then it cannot be perpetual motion machine(as then it would reach zero mass after enough time and therefore would dissolve or stop one day). If it doesn't lose weight then it is one, because according to E=MC^2 any normal physical process would have been detected and not losing mass but having energy output proves violation of energy conservation, so there is a paranormal event.


Or i forgot, you've got to convince those experts that these is far more important than their normal work and convince their funders that their money is used wisely this way.

Carn

Damn, i'm wrong, i missed the fact that also energy can be drawn out of rotation energy of earth(those satellites going for Mars and so on do it regularly), so the machine might get energy this way, though i'm totally lost how that could be achieved with a desktop machine, but then it would not be a paranormal feature, as the machine would one day stop earth's rotation and then itself would stop as well.
Or it could draw energy from cosmic rays or earths magnetic field.

Of course devising such a machine would be worth nobel prize and billions of dollars, so JREF losing one million is a acceptable prize for the benefits mankind would get through such a device.;)
 
Completely off-topic, but thatguywhojuggles, can you do Mills' Mess? I could never get the hang of it. :)

( Sorry, do carry with the rest of the thread. )
 
Carn said:
Modern precise measurements of weight allow to detect the mass loss caused by chemical reactions, e.g. burn wood inside air tight box till it dies of oxygen starvation, then precise measurements will note a difference in weight and thereby mass that is in line with E=MC^2.

What's e=mc^2 got to do with the energy released by chemical reactions? There is no mass-energy conversion going on during ordinary chemical processes such as burning a piece of wood. The box will weigh precisely the same before the fire starts and after it self-extinguishes.

If there was mass conversion going on during burning, campfires would be a bit more exciting than they actually are. :) Mass conversion happens during what people commonly refer to as nuclear reactions, such as atomic bombs and nuclear power plants. (OK, technically all forms of matter are constantly undergoing nuclear decay at some low rate, but this rate is not affected by whether burning is going on, and the energy released by burning has nothing to do with mass conversion.)

As for whether it is worthwhile to weigh the box to detect mass conversion, frankly, if the fellow has worked out how to put THAT in a small box with a nice easy to use 12V DC output, he's going to be getting a lot more money than Randi's paltry $1M. You may safely assume this is not the case.

Damn, i'm wrong, i missed the fact that also energy can be drawn out of rotation energy of earth(those satellites going for Mars and so on do it regularly), so the machine might get energy this way, though i'm totally lost how that could be achieved with a desktop machine, but then it would not be a paranormal feature, as the machine would one day stop earth's rotation and then itself would stop as well.

I'm no authority on orbital mechanics, but I believe that no energy is drawn from the rotation of a planet during "slingshot" maneuvers. It's more like using the planet's gravity well as a pivot to change the direction of the spacecraft's velocity vector.
 
Kopji said:
His best course is to go ahead and get a patent. That way the ninjas from the Oil Company Police won't get him.


Silly rabbit. The Oil Company police are in cahoots with the patent office.
 
Aerich said:
What's e=mc^2 got to do with the energy released by chemical reactions? There is no mass-energy conversion going on during ordinary chemical processes such as burning a piece of wood. The box will weigh precisely the same before the fire starts and after it self-extinguishes.

If there was mass conversion going on during burning, campfires would be a bit more exciting than they actually are. :) Mass conversion happens during what people commonly refer to as nuclear reactions, such as atomic bombs and nuclear power plants. (OK, technically all forms of matter are constantly undergoing nuclear decay at some low rate, but this rate is not affected by whether burning is going on, and the energy released by burning has nothing to do with mass conversion.)
Sorry, there is, or if my memory is incorrect about such measurements being performed, there should be a mass difference between the starting materials and the cooled down result material, which equals via E=MC'2, the released heat energy and the change in potential energy the material might have due to now floating around or so.

So its easier to believe, some further explanation(not exactly correct):
Atoms are a core of protons and neutrons surrounded by a "cloud" of electrons.
Nuclear reactions are the change of the core of atoms, e.g. if one proton goes from one atom to the next you've got a nuclear reaction. There will be energy released or neccessary in this process mainly due to the proton having in "his new" atom a different potential energy since the strong field its no in is different than in "his old" atom. Also energy levels might change in the "old" atom.
Chemical reactions now are the change os the electron "cloud" of the atom. So if one electron goes from one atom to the next you have a chemical reaction. Now why can there be some energy released?
Well, same as before those 2 atoms have different electromagnetic fields and around his new atom the electron will therefore have a different potential energy and any difference in potential energies is released as heat or whatever.
If you compare the two descriptions, you will see that the main differences are proton/electron and strong/electromagnetic force.
If you have a mass change with the one reaction you ought to have a mass change with the other rection as well or something is wrong.
As the electromagnetic binding energies of the electrons are a factor 1000 smaller than binding energies inside atom core, the mass change will be a 1000 times smaller and therefore far harder to detect.
E of 1 kg of matter is 9 * 10'16 Joule, if i assume chemical reactions to release roughly the same energy as the human body can get out of butter(3600 kj per 100 g), which will not be more far off that a factor 1000, the mass change due to chemical reactions will be roughly 36000 /(9*10'13 )kg= 0,0000000004 kg = 4* 10'(-10)kg.
Thats pretty small, therefore it would take very precise measurements to detect the mass change.
But this also means that any machine that does not take anything in from the outside, but releases energy would either have to lose mass or is a huge scientific breakthrough.
As for whether it is worthwhile to weigh the box to detect mass conversion, frankly, if the fellow has worked out how to put THAT in a small box with a nice easy to use 12V DC output, he's going to be getting a lot more money than Randi's paltry $1M. You may safely assume this is not the case.
Yes, very likely(think i said that), but if there is a mass change according to the released energy, then it cannot be perpetua mobile, as it surely stops working when reaching mass 0 and is likely something that does not contradict any physical law, probably just a new invention or a old modified.
But if a lot of energy is released without according mass loss and that is measured, then it would be either braking a known law or at least be a brand new fantastic device, that deserves the nobel prize.
I'm no authority on orbital mechanics, but I believe that no energy is drawn from the rotation of a planet during "slingshot" maneuvers. It's more like using the planet's gravity well as a pivot to change the direction of the spacecraft's velocity vector.
Its not only change of direction, but also speed, otherwise it would not be interesting. Voayager probes for example had a very tight schedule to start, otherwise it could not have gone from planet to planet always getting a little speed and have enough speed to leave solar system in the end.
And the moon is slowing the rotation speed of earth(i think dinosaurs had a 18-20 hour day), so a object moving past earth can slow rotation and that way gain movement energy.


Carn

Just realized slowing of earths rotation might be caused by earth circling round the sun or comets that pass earth from time to time, maybe all three together, but there is nothing else to slow rotation of earth around its axis.
 
MRC_Hans said:
I think you are making problems for yourself. While this guy is evidently chaotic, you cannot both say you are not interested in how it works and then demand to look inside.

This is unscientific; either you analyze the mode of operation of the device, in which case you cannot claim that you are not interested in explanations, or, you treat it as a black box, measuring input and output, in which case you are not interested in what is inside.

But you cannot have it both ways.

I must say that this apparant lack of professional scientific approach does not appear to benefit the JREF cause.

Or else, I have misunderstood something.

Respectfully,
Hans

I believe what the applicant form says is that JREF is not interested in the applicants explaination of how it works. Inspection for hidden power sources would be required.

I am curious as to why Professor Mertens was chosen as the initial tester/observer. Isn't he a professor of Psychology? Well, actually I guess that makes ironic sense.
 
stoatbringer said:
Completely off-topic, but thatguywhojuggles, can you do Mills' Mess? I could never get the hang of it. :)

( Sorry, do carry with the rest of the thread. )

With three balls or three clubs yes. Worked on 4 ball mills mess for a while, but never quite got it (yet.)
 
Professor Mertens was chosen because:

A- He is a brilliant man who has expertise in many areas of science, despite having degrees and credentials in Psychology only.

B - While numerous other experts we contacted either refused to reply to our requests for impartial assistance in testing this claim or responded by saying, "Thanks, but I have better things to do than waste my time with stuff like this", Professor Mertens immediately responded to my emails in the affirmative, and offered to visit the applicant as early as this coming weekend.

C- According to the prize rules, we do our best to see that testing occurs at a location convenient to the applicant. In securing the assistance of Professor Mertens, we have helped the applicant to avoid unnecessary expense and travel time resulting from his pursuit of the prize.

Not a single "Skeptics Group" even responded to our requests.
Professor Mertens did, within hours.

As I've stated previously in adjacent threads, one of the most difficult factors to deal with in testing applicants (perhaps even the very hardest part of my job here at JREF) is in locating qualified investigators who are willing to take part in the proceedings.

As I said, Professor Mertens is a brilliant, brilliant man who has, to Randi's satisfaction as well as my own, shown himself to be more than capable of discerning fact from fiction as regards this particular applicant's claim. Additionally, he has not only been both knowledgable and eloquent to the extreme during our telephone discussions regarding this claim, but he has also shown an attutide of kindness and patience that I sincerely doubt the applicant would find elsewhere. While many investigators would give the applicant ample but reasonably limited opportunity to prove their claims, Professor Mertens seemed willing to extent all benefit of the doubt to this applicant.

Indeed, he seemed entirely willing to bend over backwards for the guy.

We are very proud to have Professor Mertens involved in this.
I cannot imagine a more impartial investigator.
 

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