Columns can't do what?

[Totovader]

In a discussion with YouTube user dudepal187, he made several claims of which he is unwilling to seek expert opinion on. In an effort to appeal to his audience, I am providing his claims here for review.

Study the following photograph:

In the sea of broken metal and twisted columns, dudepal believes that the column which is sticking up from the ground in front of the firefighter towards the middle of the picture is clear evidence of a controlled demolition.

He believes his claims are supported by the following "facts":

1) "Columns dont simply break diagonally" [sic] dudepal believes that this column is "cut" at an angle, and claims that this cannot be the work of a collapse scenario. Regardless of the fact that this column is actually leaning and is not sheared at an angle, he has been unable to support this claim.

Are there any structural engineers or other qualified individuals who support this claim?

(I pointed out that depending on the material, existing stress, impurities, etc- in addition to the massive amount of force involved- a column being sheared at an angle is not at all impossible. He ignored me.)

2) Columns do not shear off without buckling. His claim is easily debunked by the many other columns in the photograph which show columns which have no appearance of buckling but have obviously broken off at the joints.

Again I ask for any qualified individuals to either support or address his claim.


The full discussion of this absurd claim can be found here.

 

[NoZed Avenger]

When was the photo taken?

After the collapse, a number of columns (going by memory) *were* cut. That was long after the fall.

 

[Bell]

Where's Christophera when you need him?

 

[Totovader]

When was the photo taken?

After the collapse, a number of columns (going by memory) *were* cut. That was long after the fall.

The photo is undated and unsourced. I personally have never seen it before in any of the archives, but it certainly looks legitimate.


If anyone does have any information on the photo- I would appreciate it.

 

[Gravy]

Ask your opponent to provide a clear closeup photo of that column. As for steel not fracturing, um, no.

In the extremely strong earthquake that struck Kobe and other parts of southern Hyogo Prefecture on January 17, 1995, structural steel was found to have snapped like sticks of chalk. ...structural steel materials broke before they could dissipate energy through inelastic deformation, suggesting that a force smaller than the design force was able to destroy them.

"Development of an Analysis of Structural Steel Fracture and Development of Technical Solutions."
http://www.fire.nist.gov/bfrlpubs/build98/PDF/b98144.pdf

 

[GT/CS]

Anyone who has taken a university materials lab has snapped steel on a machine that looks like a sledge hammer on a pivot (can't remember the name of the testing machine). It snaps cleanly.

 

[Totovader]

When was the photo taken?

After the collapse, a number of columns (going by memory) *were* cut. That was long after the fall.

Um... here was dudepal's reply to that:

I found it on google, that is a source.

Can we get a stundie judge in here?

 

[maccy]

This reminds me of an argument with Christopher7, before he became chronically mono-threadal. It starts here:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2173906#post2173906

(go to the beginning of the thread if you want to relive the lunacy that was submersible)

some links from that thread:

Here are some details of steel fracture:

http://mot.vuse.vanderbilt.edu/mse150/Fracture/Charpy.htm
http://newsdesk.inl.gov/press_releases/2001/11-15steel_fractures.htm
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16250276
http://stinet.dtic.mil/oai/oai?&verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0256119

By the way, the banned member Wizard on that thread was PDoherty's sock of the moment, and can be disregarded.

ETA: The torch cutting that went on as part of the clean-up operation is very well covered here:

http://www.debunking911.com/thermite.htm

 

[Slayhamlet]

Um... here was dudepal's reply to that:



Can we get a stundie judge in here?

Does this mean I don't have to deal with all that MLA style garbage any more and I can now just cite Google for the bibliography of all my term papers? Sweet.

 

[njslim]

Based on the amount of smoke in the picture, the large debris field and the
FDNY fireman still wearing normal fire fighting bunker gear (later in recovery
the men wore brown overalls with their bunker coats) it is early in the
recovery possibly only day or two later.

 

[Minadin]

That's not a diagonal cut, IMO. It's a rectangular section of steel that is leaning toward the camera, and the perspective / foreshortening creates the illusion of a diagonal end.

 

[Totovader]

Based on the amount of smoke in the picture, the large debris field and the
FDNY fireman still wearing normal fire fighting bunker gear (later in recovery
the men wore brown overalls with their bunker coats) it is early in the
recovery possibly only day or two later.

Except that the firefighters were still there LONG after cleanup efforts had begun- some of them still in gear. Additionally- those fires raged on for weeks after 9/11 (also why the firefighters were still in gear).

I'm not saying it's not early- I'm just saying it's inconsistent to claim that the smoke and outfit mean it is.

 

[maccy]

The photo is undated and unsourced. I personally have never seen it before in any of the archives, but it certainly looks legitimate.


If anyone does have any information on the photo- I would appreciate it.

http://correctedbyreality.com/research/wtc/groundzero.jpeg

is you hosting it you your site, correct?

If so, where did you get it from?

 

[maccy]

That's not a diagonal cut, IMO. It's a rectangular section of steel that is leaning toward the camera, and the perspective / foreshortening creates the illusion of a diagonal end.

Agreed.

 

[MG1962]

That's not a diagonal cut, IMO. It's a rectangular section of steel that is leaning toward the camera, and the perspective / foreshortening creates the illusion of a diagonal end.

Dude, that is a BRILLIANT pickup - you are dead right!!!

 

[Totovader]

http://correctedbyreality.com/research/wtc/groundzero.jpeg

is you hosting it you your site, correct?

If so, where did you get it from?

Yes, I did have to host it on mine- the original URL he gave me had a bandwidth restriction on it today, so I had to upload a copy I saved the night before.

The original location is here: http://davesweb.cnchost.com/groundzero.jpeg

 

[Bell]

Here it is:

http://www.september11news.com/JamesNachtweyTime_search.jpg
http://www.september11news.com/JamesNachtweyTime_search2.jpg
http://www.september11news.com/JamesNachtweyTime_search3.jpg

Just did a Google search (I recognized the picture).

It was taken on 9/11, judging by the second picture, showing WTC burning in the background.

ETA: In the upper left corner of the first picture, you can see WTC7 as well.

 

[Totovader]

Here it is:

http://www.september11news.com/JamesNachtweyTime_search.jpg
http://www.september11news.com/JamesNachtweyTime_search2.jpg
http://www.september11news.com/JamesNachtweyTime_search3.jpg

Just did a Google search (I recognized the picture).

It was taken on 9/11, judging by the second picture, showing WTC burning in the background.

ETA: In the upper left corner of the first picture, you can see WTC7 as well.

Kudos- nice job.

So this is still some time in the afternoon- the 3rd picture shows a side view of some of the same columns- clearly broken off at the joint.

Drinks are on me.

 

[Reality Believer]

This, and many other claims go in the "inscrutable detail" file.

If someone drills a few 1mm holes in the Hoover Dam, does that prove that it does not hold water?

At some point are we going to start demanding that people who pick the fly stuff out of the pepper, actually acknowledge that the pepper exists?

 

[cmcaulif]

2) Columns do not shear off without buckling. His claim is easily debunked by the many other columns in the photograph which show columns which have no appearance of buckling but have obviously broken off at the joints.

you simply need to ask him why he believes the load path must, as a necessity, follow only through the columns rather than the floor slabs, truss seats, and numerous bolted connections that will fail with strain energies well below what is required to buckle support columns.

However, in papers such as Bazant and Zhou, they DO make this assumption, but they do it because it is favorable towards the preservation of the building(just in case that is where he got the idea from).