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Cold War II. Russia to play next

The Atheist

The Grammar Tyrant
The Atheist
Joined
Jul 3, 2006
Messages
36,364
The Atheist said:
Monday: John Kerry announces a plan to send additional arms to be to the Baltic States.

Tuesday: Putin puts in order for 40 new nuclear ICBMs.

Wednesday: NATO hold exercises only 100 miles from Kalingrad Naval Base.

Given Russia's recent continued incursions into - or close to - NATO member air (and sea) spaces, I can't see Putin letting this go and his response will be interesting.

Seems to me that we have already commenced Cold War II.
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I think you've got the order of causality wrong. It's the West that's responding to Putin's acts of aggression, not the other way around. Sending arms to the Baltic states is clearly a response to Putin's incursion into Ukraine.

Also, this isn't Cold War 2. It's still the same Cold War as before, which never actually ended.
 

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theprestige said:
I think you've got the order of causality wrong. It's the West that's responding to Putin's acts of aggression, not the other way around. Sending arms to the Baltic states is clearly a response to Putin's incursion into Ukraine.
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Well, obviously, but the progression this week is pretty cool.

theprestige said:
Also, this isn't Cold War 2. It's still the same Cold War as before, which never actually ended.
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I disagree. The Cold War ended with the breakup of the USSR and Russia was almost friendly for a while, and you could hardly say it was continuing while Gorby was boss.

Matthew Ellard said:
Well.....considering Kaliningrad is a Russian coastal territory, in the middle of NATOs new members, it was going to be difficult to find some northern beach for training not near Kaliningrad.
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Again, that is obviously the case.

However, the timing is provocative and it's designed to send a message to Russia.
 
The Atheist said:
However, the timing is provocative and it's designed to send a message to Russia.
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Provocative?

Russia has invaded a soverign nation whom it explicitly pledged not to attack, and annexed it territory. When NATO protested, Russia sent about twice as many soldiers as the Baltic states combined have to their border, for "exercises", and announced an expansion of their nuclear arsenal.

Please tell me how NATO exercises in those countries can be "provocative" in any way.

They're sending a message to Russia all right. The message is "don't even think about it".

McHrozni
 
They are ramping up their 'air war' as well. RAF scrambled 3 times in 24 hours to intercept Russian aircraft heading towards UK airspace this week.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
They are ramping up their 'air war' as well. RAF scrambled 3 times in 24 hours to intercept Russian aircraft heading towards UK airspace this week.
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This wasn't the RAF defending UK airspace, they are currently part of the Baltic air policing mission and were launched from Estonia to protect its airspace.
 
The Atheist said:
However, the timing is provocative and it's designed to send a message to Russia.
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The timing is designed to send the message to the Baltic States, Poland and Romania that, "The mutual defence clauses aren't just for Germany and countries west."
 
Designed to send a message to a Russia that is busy destabilising its neighbours and trying to exert control over them and in the case of the Ukraine invading it, Crimea should be considered Russian occupied Ukraine.
 
“The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the Cold War’s been over for 20 years.”

–President Obama, during the third presidential debate, Oct. 22, 2012


Ah, for the good old days ( 2012), when people still denied that Russia was a problem.
 
Giz said:
“The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the Cold War’s been over for 20 years.”

–President Obama, during the third presidential debate, Oct. 22, 2012


Ah, for the good old days ( 2012), when people still denied that Russia was a problem.
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This never happened.
We've always been at war with Eastasia and Putin always was the new new Hitler.
 
Should have *********** listened to Patton.

He indicated he would start by finding a great military mind who would be this generation's equivalent of the World War II Gens. George Patton or Douglas MacArthur.

"Nobody would be tougher on ISIS than Donald Trump, nobody," he said. "I will find the General Patton or I will find General MacArthur. I will find the right guy. I will find the guy that's going to take that military and make it really work.".
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Trump '16!
 
theprestige said:
I think you've got the order of causality wrong. It's the West that's responding to Putin's acts of aggression, not the other way around. Sending arms to the Baltic states is clearly a response to Putin's incursion into Ukraine.

Also, this isn't Cold War 2. It's still the same Cold War as before, which never actually ended.
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... And Putin's incursion into Ukraine is a response to NATO pushing up against Russia's borders.
 
Joe Syracusa (of my alma mater) was saying just yesterday that sending 160 new tanks to Poland is impotent at best, all they'll do is make a great target for Russia
 
The Atheist said:
I disagree. The Cold War ended with the breakup of the USSR and Russia was almost friendly for a while, and you could hardly say it was continuing while Gorby was boss.
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I think it was nice to imagine that the Cold War ended with the Soviet Union, but in hindsight I think it's pretty clear that the existential differences between Russia and the West were never really resolved, and the Cold War detente never really thawed completely.

Certainly post-Soviet Russia had to play nice for a while, at least until it got its new borders, responsibilities, and sovereignty sorted out (especially the nuclear arsenals). But the underlying geographical, cultural, and even ideological conflicts were never really resolved.

I think that viewing the rollback of the Soviet Union as an end to the Cold War makes the mistake of dangerously underestimating Russia's essential nature and interests. Putin didn't make the Russia we're dealing with today; rather, the Russia that has always existed made the Putin we're dealing with today.
 
magellan said:
Giz said:
“The 1980s are now calling to ask for their foreign policy back because the Cold War’s been over for 20 years.”

–President Obama, during the third presidential debate, Oct. 22, 2012


Ah, for the good old days ( 2012), when people still denied that Russia was a problem.
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This never happened.
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Oh, it totally happened. It happened because Obama is an idiot who was looking forward to being President in an Easy-Mode world where cultural and geostrategic conflict with Russia would never be a problem he had to solve.

But wishing don't make it so, and in spite of the stupid things he said on Oct. 22, 2012, here he is today, having to deal with the same Cold-War problems as his predecessors. Problems he should have spent the preceding 20 years studying and planning for, instead of ignoring in the hopes that they would magically go away by the time he took office.

We've always been at war with Eastasia and Putin always was the new new Hitler.
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It's funny because it's true. Europe (and its allies) have been an obstacle to Russian hegemony and global interests for going on 300 years at least, and by the same token Russia has been a threat to Europe and its allies for at least that long as well. And Vladimir Putin, while certainly not identical to Adolf Hitler in every way, does seem to be in a similar strategic position, and seems to be using some very similar strategic solutions so far. I personally wouldn't call him a "new Hitler", but I do see the similarities.
 
theprestige said:
Oh, it totally happened. It happened because Obama is an idiot who was looking forward to being President in an Easy-Mode world where cultural and geostrategic conflict with Russia would never be a problem he had to solve.
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Not because Bush II gazed into his eyes and saw a good man?

Not because Bush I reneged on the agreement not to expand NATO?
 
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