CIA still holds that the labs in the buried vans could make unconventional weapons

[JAR]

According to an LA Times article I read yesterday, the CIA still holds that the mobile labs buried in the ground could be used to make unconventional weapons.

That Saddam would make his labs mobile and that he would bury them makes it seem most likely that they were used for making unconventional weapons,which are things Saddam wasn't supposed to make. That would be his motive for making the labs mobile and for burying them. He was trying to hide something from us so we wouldn't know he had it.

The two other theories I've read which are not upheld by the CIA along with the reasons I think they're unlikely to be true are given below:

Theory #1. They were used for making conventional weapons:

I think that theory is unlikely to be true because a)It was much easier for Saddam to purchase conventional weapons than it was for him to make them, and b)I can't think of any reason he would make these labs mobile labs if all they were used for was for making conventional weapons.

Theory #2: They were used for making helium for weather balloons:

I think that theory is unlikely to be true because a)It was much easier for Saddam to purchase helium than it was for him to make it, and b)I can't think of any reason he would make these labs mobile if all they were used for was for making helium.

Perhaps there is something I'm not taking into account. If there is, please tell me about it.

 

[Shinytop]

Weather balloons for artillery need to be used all over the battlefield, hence mobile labs.

But forget that if you want. The fact is that the labs without any WMD prove not a damn thing with regard to Bush's assertion that their weapons were many and ready to use.

Let them argue and assert all they want, they have not yet proven any WMD and are much too late to prove an imminent threat.

 

[JAR]

Weather balloons for artillery need to be used all over the battlefield, hence mobile labs.

Thanks for the information. I didn't know that.

 

[JAR]

Weather balloons for artillery need to be used all over the battlefield, hence mobile labs.

If these mobile labs are of a type that are commonly used for weather balloons for artillery, why haven't we found tons of these things being that they're commonly found with artillery?

 

[The Fool]

Re: CIA still holds that the labs in the buried vans could make unconventional weapons

According to an LA Times article I read yesterday, the CIA still holds that the mobile labs buried in the ground could be used to make unconventional weapons.

That Saddam would make his labs mobile and that he would bury them makes it seem most likely that they were used for making unconventional weapons,which are things Saddam wasn't supposed to make. That would be his motive for making the labs mobile and for burying them. He was trying to hide something from us so we wouldn't know he had it.

The two other theories I've read which are not upheld by the CIA along with the reasons I think they're unlikely to be true are given below:

Theory #1. They were used for making conventional weapons:

I think that theory is unlikely to be true because a)It was much easier for Saddam to purchase conventional weapons than it was for him to make them, and b)I can't think of any reason he would make these labs mobile labs if all they were used for was for making conventional weapons.

Theory #2: They were used for making helium for weather balloons:

I think that theory is unlikely to be true because a)It was much easier for Saddam to purchase helium than it was for him to make it, and b)I can't think of any reason he would make these labs mobile if all they were used for was for making helium.

Lol.... I was thinking of turning my wife in. After all, the pots and pans she has could be used to make unconventional weapons....

As for the weather balloons......How many times do people have to explain this to you? Do you expect an artillary unit to carry around bloody great big tanks of pressurised gas?? No, they use a small simple cheap still and some simple chemicals to produce hydrogen, not helium.

You are really clutching at straws now JAR. You are now reduced to stories like "There exists bits and pieces of stuff that if put together in a certain way (after digging them up from where they have been dumped and buried) they could possibly be used to make something naughty....What a joke..... whats the next wacko theory? Charge children for possession of Meccano sets because they could potentially build something nasty with them?

I have fertilizer in my shed....I could make a bomb!!!! and that broom handle! It could easily be sharpened into a spear! quick, call the FBI!!!

 

[Earthborn]

Theory #2: They were used for making helium for weather balloons:

Hydrogen, not helium.

Helium is actually very difficult to make, you'll have to mine it or filter it out of the air (which contains very little). Helium is also heavier than hydrogen, so the weather balloon can't reach as high.

Hydrogen however is very easy to make: some acid, and some metal strips, put them in a pot together, and the hydrogen bubbles up. It's cheap to make on the spot.

Iraq could have bought hydrogen, but it is very hard to handle for a long time. It makes much better sense to make it on the spot, where and when you need it. If you want to launch balloons from various places, the only way you can do it is with mobile factories.

Experts have examined the trucks and concluded that most likely they were used for making hydrogen. There was no way anyone could have made conventional weapons with them, and for making biological or chemical ones it lacks many control mechanisms.

Why the Iraqis buried them is anyone's guess. But if the CIA still wants to maintain that they were for making 'unconventional' weapons (maybe the Iraqi equivalent of a 'hydrogen bomb'... a balloon with a fuse ) then they should expect they will be the laughing stock for decades to come.

 

[scotth]

Weather balloons for artillery need to be used all over the battlefield, hence mobile labs.

It would be rediculous to suggest that the production of helium would for any reason need to be close to a battlefield.

Helium would not need to be produced any closer the front than gunpowder for example.

In the U.S., we don't place helium making facilies close to where helium is needed. We place them where it is convenient to make helium and ship from there.

Helium cannot be "manufactured", it can only be filtered from found sources and even that is not alot of fun to do.

A small lab would take a long time to make enough helium to fill a couple of weather balloons. Large volumes a material (probably natural gas) will need to be passed through this lab to filter the helium out of it. And hopefully they have uranium ore in the ground close to where this natural gas comes from, or the gas won't have much helium in it.

Helium is removed from natural gas cryogenically. In this case, that means the cool the mixture so much that every other gas in it, beside helium has condensed or frozen. Then draw off the helium. Difficult to do on a large scale.

And finally, helium for weather balloons is not a "high value target", really. It simply isn't worth the effort to make their helium production mobile to protect it.

In fact, I would be very surprised to hear that Iraq launched a single weather balloon in support of their artillary during the entire conflict.

Having said all that in defense of Jar's first theory.

I still agree with Shinytop that have not proven MWD yet.

I would say that this buried van discovery most likely indicates a production capability. It also seems unreasonable to believe they would have production cablilities and never made any. Where are they now?

I don't know. They could be destoyed. They could have been destroyed before we got there. I am not convinced of that, bit it is possible. I suspect we will know with near certainity sometime in the not too distant future.

I'll wait 'til we know, before I am ready to crucify anyone. I'm patient because I know we will find out. Right now we are just speculating that the intelligence was wrong.

Edited to add: The Helium correction to Hydrogen was typed in while I was typing this whole mess in. Some of this is now moot, a good bit of is not. For instance, it seems unlikely that they would have such a need desperate need for hydrogen close to a battle that they would have mobile hydrogen labs and to bury them.

 

[JAR]

[snip]
Why the Iraqis buried them is anyone's guess. But if the CIA still wants to maintain that they were for making 'unconventional' weapons (maybe the Iraqi equivalent of a 'hydrogen bomb'... a balloon with a fuse ) then they should expect they will be the laughing stock for decades to come.

The Iraqis were burying things because they wanted to regain them when they regained their territory. [Edited to add: This may be incorrect. My father said that the article that I got the information from didn't say why the Iraqis buried what they buried.] Other things besides the mobile labs were buried, such as planes and tanks.[Edited to add: That's incorrect due to my bad memory. According to my father, the article that I got this information from didn't say anything about tanks being buried. It mentioned planes being buried, but no tanks.] According to an Iraqi general who was ordered to bury tanks(I think that's what I remember that he was ordered to bury), the burying of tanks rendered them useless. After they are buried, they don't work anymore. The general said it was one of Saddam's sons who ordered him to bury his tanks. [Edited to add: This is incorrect. It wasn't tanks that he was ordered to bury, but planes, and the planes were useless after they were buried.] I can't remember which son it was.

The U.S. fighters were so efficient at destroying ground vehicles that it was extremely unsafe for the Iraqis to move their tanks from fortifications. The same Iraqi general quoted above said that he would lose tanks from patrolling fighters everytime he moved his unit. He was constantly being given orders by the same son who ordered him to bury tanks. [Edited to add: The general was ordered to bury planes, not tanks.] He said that that son of Saddam ordered troops like a kid playing a computer wargame.

 

[JAR]

Due to my bad memory, the post I wrote right before this one was inaccurate. I've added stuff to the post to show where my inaccuracies are.

 

[subgenius]

The CIA apparently can't find its butthole in an outhouse, and spends more resources defending its indefensible incompetence (covering the aforementioned a**hole with paper) than in gathering good information.

Just trust me on this one. Or don't.

 

[CapelDodger]

The system was sold to Iraq by the Brits in 1982. The balloons are used in measuring wind-speed to improve artillery accuracy. More modern systems use doppler radar techniques. Or so I'm told. Sorry, no references.

 

[LW]

Hydrogen however is very easy to make: some acid, and some metal strips, put them in a pot together, and the hydrogen bubbles up. It's cheap to make on the spot.

And add 10 liters of warm water.

Iraq could have bought hydrogen, but it is very hard to handle for a long time. It makes much better sense to make it on the spot, where and when you need it. If you want to launch balloons from various places, the only way you can do it is with mobile factories.

I don't know enough about the mobile vans to make any serious guess for their purpose, but I have the advantage that I served 6 months as an artillery weatherman and sent ~50 weather balloons up to the sky .

In the "live" artillery weather reports we used bottled hydrogen but during our training we made it ourselves using large kettles.

I see no compelling reason to have a full lab for hydrogen manufacture, as the only thing necesessary are a large pressurised kettle (weights around 20 kg), warm water, cold water, and some chemicals. These can be transported on ordinary trucks or even small cars. However, I see no reason to absolutely rule out the possibility, either, as some one in the Iraqi military might have seen such a reason.

By the way, one of the nastiest feelings that I've ever had was during training when the previous weather squad hadn't cleaned the pressurised kettle well and its tubes froze solid. We didn't notice that until we had started the reaction. So, we were standing beside a large pressurised pot filled with acid that got more and more pressurised by generated hydrogen. Not a nice feeling. After examining the situation our instructor removed the tubes and let the hydrogen escape to open air.

 

[Tricky]

Due to my bad memory, the post I wrote right before this one was inaccurate. I've added stuff to the post to show where my inaccuracies are.

Speaking of inaccuracies, remember your contention that the WMDs would be found shortly? You haven't posted to that thread in over a month. While you're in a conciliatory mood, I think you should at least put in a guest appearance to comment on the innacuracy of that post.

 

[corplinx]

The other possibility is that buried truck trailers or vans or whatever haven't been found yet. It was sort of an assumption that the trailers we found _above_ _ground_ were what the CIA intel was about.

 

[a_unique_person]

The other possibility is that buried truck trailers or vans or whatever haven't been found yet. It was sort of an assumption that the trailers we found _above_ _ground_ were what the CIA intel was about.

Well, that settles it for me then. They could have anything buried under the ground, so they are guilty.

 

[CapelDodger]

From LW:

I see no compelling reason to have a full lab for hydrogen manufacture, as the only thing necesessary are a large pressurised kettle (weights around 20 kg), warm water, cold water, and some chemicals

Actually the term "labs" has simply been applied to the vehicles. They're actually medium-sized flatbeds, not even sealable. There are no sterlising units, just big pots or, perhaps, kettles. Remember, they were dubbed "labs" sight-unseen.

 

[originalgagster]

the WOMD will be discovered soon enough. Inside a UFO, piloted by elvis, landing on the loch ness monsters head.

 

[peptoabysmal]

And add 10 liters of warm water.



I don't know enough about the mobile vans to make any serious guess for their purpose, but I have the advantage that I served 6 months as an artillery weatherman and sent ~50 weather balloons up to the sky .

In the "live" artillery weather reports we used bottled hydrogen but during our training we made it ourselves using large kettles.

I see no compelling reason to have a full lab for hydrogen manufacture, as the only thing necesessary are a large pressurised kettle (weights around 20 kg), warm water, cold water, and some chemicals. These can be transported on ordinary trucks or even small cars. However, I see no reason to absolutely rule out the possibility, either, as some one in the Iraqi military might have seen such a reason.

By the way, one of the nastiest feelings that I've ever had was during training when the previous weather squad hadn't cleaned the pressurised kettle well and its tubes froze solid. We didn't notice that until we had started the reaction. So, we were standing beside a large pressurised pot filled with acid that got more and more pressurised by generated hydrogen. Not a nice feeling. After examining the situation our instructor removed the tubes and let the hydrogen escape to open air.

The other compelling argument for the labs being used to produce hydrogen for balloons, would be, uh... balloons. By the same argument that people say there have been no WMD found, I say neither have there been any balloons found. There have not been any balloons found on or near the mobile labs, nor has there been any intel reports of balloons used during the war, nor any documentation found on using the ballons. Not even photos of the balloons.

At least the CIA has photos of suspected WMD sites and weapons.

 

[Mr Manifesto]

The other compelling argument for the labs being used to produce hydrogen for balloons, would be, uh... balloons. By the same argument that people say there have been no WMD found, I say neither have there been any balloons found. There have not been any balloons found on or near the mobile labs, nor has there been any intel reports of balloons used during the war, nor any documentation found on using the ballons. Not even photos of the balloons.

At least the CIA has photos of suspected WMD sites and weapons.

Then they'd better break them out quick!

The 1,400-strong Iraq Survey Group, sent out in May to begin an intensive hunt for the elusive weapons, is expected to report this week that it has found no WMD hardware, nor even any sign of active programmes. The inspectors, headed by David Kay, a close associate of President George Bush, are likely to say the only evidence it has found is that the Iraqi government had retained a group of scientists who had the expertise to restart the weapons programme at any time.

Foreshadowing the report, Mr Bolton said the issue was not weapons, or actual programmes, but "the capability that Iraq sought to have ... WMD programmes". Saddam, he claimed, kept "a coterie" of scientists he was preserving for the day when he could build nuclear weapons unhindered by international constraints. "Whether he possessed them today or four years ago isn't really the issue," he said. "As long as that regime was in power, it was determined to get nuclear, chemical and biological weapons one way or another. Until that regime was removed from power, that threat remained - that was the purpose of the military action."

Maybe Saddam should have executed those scientists to reassure the ever-paranoid US government?

 

[corplinx]

Well, that settles it for me then. They could have anything buried under the ground, so they are guilty.

I was just throwing that out as a suggestion AUP. I didn't say I believed it or put any credence in it.