Church and State and Pastrami

[arcticpenguin]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-02-24-court-kosher_x.htm

The U.S. Supreme Court refused without coumment to hear a case concerning New York state laws setting standards for labeling of kosher food.

The laws were struck down last year by an appeals court.

At issue is the way New York regulated kosher products to ensure they met strict Orthodox Judaism religious requirements. The appeals court held that the laws improperly take sides in a religious matter.

Two Long Island butchers had sued the state Department of Agriculture and Markets. Their lawyer, Robert Jay Dinerstein of Commack, N.Y., said there are disagreements about the interpretation of the Jewish laws governing what is kosher within the orthodox Jewish community and other branches of Judaism.

He compared the state's use of only orthodox requirements to a state giving priority to Catholicism views. "If another denomination of Christianity offered its members Communion, they could only use a Eucharist and wine approved by the Roman Catholic Church; otherwise, the Communion was illegitimate and perpetrated a fraud," Dinerstein wrote in a filing.

The state laws date back to 1915, and the Supreme Court rejected a challenge to them in 1925 on different grounds. The laws prohibit fraud in the sale of kosher food.

 

[pgwenthold]

While generally very funny, this action by the SCOTUS is significant. It sets a precidence for the next "Ten Commandments" or "Lord's Prayer" case. Catholic and protestant versions of each are different. Hence, whichever version is posted will have to favor one sect over the other, which the court is now saying they cannot do.

These are questions that I bring up in a discussion of posting the ten commandments:

1) Whose version of the ten commandments are you going to chose to display?
2) After chosing one sect's version over another, how can you claim that you are not establishing a favored religion?

I sent an email to my local congressman who is one of those who favors laws requiring posting the 10 commandments _in congress_. He never answered.

 

[corplinx]

1) Whose version of the ten commandments are you going to chose to display?

I had to take a religion class at University and I picked Old Testament. It was taught at a Christian Brothers Univeristy (a La Salle school). I didn't gleen from it any real differences in the Ten Commandments from the version _most_ protestants use (which I was forced to learn in my youth, the horror). There are some protestants who use a different enumeration as I understand (I am no expert), however as with most xians I doubt they know them well enough to know the difference.

If a judge was hanging the ten commandments as an homage to the moral systems that shaped our country, then I think he should post them in original hebrew with translations from the oldest source possible. If I was posting a historical document, I would at least get a historically accurate source.

 

[pgwenthold]

I had to take a religion class at University and I picked Old Testament. It was taught at a Christian Brothers Univeristy (a La Salle school). I didn't gleen from it any real differences in the Ten Commandments from the version _most_ protestants use (which I was forced to learn in my youth, the horror). There are some protestants who use a different enumeration as I understand (I am no expert), however as with most xians I doubt they know them well enough to know the difference.

And the protestant versions differ from the catholic version I learned as a young one.

Protestant version
1) I am the Lord thy God
2) Do not take the Lord's name in vain
3) Remember the sabbath
4) No false idols

(the order of 2,3,4 could be wrong; this is the version I don't know)

5) Honor ma and pa
6) Do not kill
7) Do not steal
8) No adultry
9) Do not bear false witness
10) Do not covet

The catholic version:
1) I am the Lord thy god
2) Do not take the Lord's name in vain
3) Remember the Sabbath
4) Honor they father and mother
5) Do not kill
6) Do not steal
7) Do not commit adultery
8) Do not bear false witness
9) Do not covet thy neighbor's wife
10) Do not covet thy neighbor's goods

The protestant version basically has an extra commandment. But then, could you imagine the catholic church trying to tell someone to not have no false idols? It would be too funny.

This of course is all in addition to the fact that there are plenty of "non standard" versions in the old and new testaments.

 

[corplinx]

The protestant version basically has an extra commandment. But then, could you imagine the catholic church trying to tell someone to not have no false idols? It would be too funny.

Ohhhhhh... right. My memory must be getting fuzzy. I think it wasn't "false idols" but "graven images" in general that the commandment covers. Which of course is the reason most protestants don't use icons, statues, crucifix, etc.

The ten commandments come from the Torah though. If you were to put them in a courthouse as a historical document, I think using the canonical version from the Torah would be a good idea.

I think the canonical Torah version contains the graven images line as its supposed to be ironic when Moses comes down and everyone is worshipping a gold heifer (those israelites sure could pick em).

 

[pgwenthold]

The ten commandments come from the Torah though. If you were to put them in a courthouse as a historical document, I think using the canonical version from the Torah would be a good idea.

For Roman Catholics, the Ten Commandments are those that are provided in the Catechism. You may not find the RC Ten Commandments directly in the Torah. Hence, to call the canonical version from the Torah "The Ten Commandments" excludes Roman Catholics.

 

[corplinx]

Hence, to call the canonical version from the Torah "The Ten Commandments" excludes Roman Catholics.

It would.... if it were some sort of religious statement favouring some sect. However, if it really is being posted as a historical document then I personally would post the Torah version.

History excludes noone.

 

[pgwenthold]

It would.... if it were some sort of religious statement favouring some sect. However, if it really is being posted as a historical document then I personally would post the Torah version.

History excludes noone.

If it is a "historical document" then there is no list of ten commandments.

What you are proposing is posting the section of the Torah that describes the precepts that are often recognized as the 10 Commandments. A technical difference, but an important one.

As soon as you start to number them, it is no longer a historical document.

 

[corplinx]

If it is a "historical document" then there is no list of ten commandments.

What you are proposing is posting the section of the Torah that describes the precepts that are often recognized as the 10 Commandments. A technical difference, but an important one.

As soon as you start to number them, it is no longer a historical document.

Numbering them according to interpretation would definitely be sectarian and would start to border on a first amendment violation. The only other way I see of posting them is to use the version the founders were most likely familiar with and influenced/inspired them. Of course, the catholic version is a very important historical document also since it had a great influence on western moral thought in general.

If the catholic version was posted, I would hope protestants would acknowledge its significance historically instead of feeling "excluded".

In fact, the biggest discrepency is "imagery/idolatry" which has no influence on american law.

 

[gnome]

The laws were struck down last year by an appeals court.

At issue is the way New York regulated kosher products to ensure they met strict Orthodox Judaism religious requirements. The appeals court held that the laws improperly take sides in a religious matter.

I wonder if this calls for a "Shanek" solution. Let private Jewish organizations come up with their own standards however they please (and publish them), and the food manufacturer can seek a kosher label from these organizations. A fraud law could then simply compare the food process to the published standard for the label it bears.

 

[arcticpenguin]

Re: Re: Church and State and Pastrami

I wonder if this calls for a "Shanek" solution. Let private Jewish organizations come up with their own standards however they please (and publish them), and the food manufacturer can seek a kosher label from these organizations. A fraud law could then simply compare the food process to the published standard for the label it bears.

Something like that, but presumably if the organization promoting the label (good housekeeping seal) wanted to be taken seriously, they would do testing and inspections to insure that licensees were living up to the label. If not, they would have their right to use the label revoked, or be hit with a 'breach of contract' suit, so it probably would never make it to a criminal court on a fraud charge.