Dr Adequate
Banned
- Joined
- Aug 31, 2004
- Messages
- 17,766
I thought some of this might come in handy some day:
Theodosius Dobzhansky, eminent biologist and devout Christian (http://www.2think.org/dobzhansky.shtml) : "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution... It is wrong to hold creation and evolution as mutually exclusive alternatives. I am a creationist and an evolutionist. Evolution is God’s, or Nature’s method of creation. Creation is not an event that happened in 4004 BC; it is a process that began some 10 billion years ago and is still under way... Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry."
Christians fight Young Earth Creationism in court (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/devil.htm) : "The depth of anti-creationist sentiment among mainstream Christians was perhaps best illustrated during the Arkansas "Balanced Treatment" trial. All but two of the plaintiffs who sued to have the creationist law thrown out were representatives of mainstream religious organizations and churches, including ... the resident Bishops of the United Methodist, Episcopalian, Roman Catholic and African Methodist Episcopal churches, the Arkansas head of the Presbyterian Church, and individual clergy from the United Methodist, Southern Baptist and Presbyterian churches."
Confessions of a former YEC (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/7755/Paluxygullibility.html) : "I am no newcomer to young earth creationism. I grew up with it. I believed it. Then I discovered it was wrong. I've had many, many years of experience with YEC. I'm used to the habitual carelessness with details, the attitude of remaining obstinate in error, and the endless repetition of anecdotal stories that characterizes so much of the YEC community. These are straightforward facts that non-YECs who have experience with YECs attest to, and there are even some YECs who have honestly acknowledged that these are problems characteristic of the "YEC culture." (Indeed, before I became a non-YEC, I was one of those YECs that acknowledged that.)"
Evolution is not an "atheist theory" : a Christian explains (http://members.aol.com/steamdoc/writings/evolution.html) : "The theory of evolution has been used as a tool by those arguing for atheism. However, as we have seen, this is not a valid use of the science itself; it is a philosophical extrapolation abetted by a "God of the Gaps" outlook. To reject the science because some abuse it in this manner would be to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Around 1800, some were using the determinism and broad explanatory success of Newton's science to advocate atheism. I don't know how churches responded, but it would have been a sad misdirection of effort for them to attack Newton's science."
Should we teach creationism in school? Former President Carter speaks out (www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/01/30/georgia.evolution/) : "The existing and long-standing use of the word 'evolution' in our state's textbooks has not adversely affected Georgians' belief in the omnipotence of God as creator of the universe. There can be no incompatibility between Christian faith and proven facts concerning geology, biology, and astronomy.
There is no need to teach that stars can fall out of the sky and land on a flat Earth in order to defend our religious faith."
FOOTNOTE : some more interesting Presidential quotes:
"Of course like every other man of intelligence and education I do believe in organic evolution. It surprises me at this late date such questions should be raised." --- Woodrow Wilson.
"Thank Heaven I sat at the feet of Darwin and Huxley." --- Theodore Roosevelt
Creationists who admit common ancestry: a self-avowed Creationist writes (http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/cmnctsry.html) : "Proverbs 12:19 (NLT): "Truth stands the test of time; lies are soon exposed." I do not claim (nor do I even think) that creationist/IDists who oppose common ancestry are lying, in the sense of knowingly opposing truth and promoting falsehood. Rather, I claim (and think) that they are unknowingly opposing truth and promoting falsehood. The bottom line is that if common ancestry is true (and I am persuaded by the evidence that it is), then creationist/IDists who oppose common ancestry are opposing truth and promoting falsehood. "
Radiometric dating works: a Christian explains (http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html) :"Radiometric dating--the process of determining the age of rocks from the decay of their radioactive elements--has been in widespread use for over half a century. There are over forty such techniques, each using a different radioactive element or a different way of measuring them. It has become increasingly clear that these radiometric dating techniques agree with each other and as a whole, present a coherent picture in which the Earth was created a very long time ago. Further evidence comes from the complete agreement between radiometric dates and other dating methods such as counting tree rings or glacier ice core layers. Many Christians have been led to distrust radiometric dating and are completely unaware of the great number of laboratory measurements that have shown these methods to be consistent. Many are also unaware that Bible-believing Christians are among those actively involved in radiometric dating."
A Christian and geologist debunks the Paluxy tracks (http://origins.swau.edu/papers/geologic/geology/index.html): "Along with a couple of colleagues, I next traveled to Glen Rose, Texas. The Paluxy River in Glen Rose reportedly contained human and dinosaur tracks side-by-side. These reports were being used widely as evidence to support the coexistence of humans and dinosaurs, which according to conventional geology were separated in time by 100 million years. Thus the Bible was right, the geologists were wrong. We concluded that if there were such tracks in the riverbed, it should be relatively easy to settle the matter. We arrived in late summer when the river was dry, and carefully analyzed the exposed trackways for evidence that human tracks were present alongside those of dinosaurs. We found the expected dinosaur tracks and a trackway composed of curious elongated tracks made by a dinosaur walking on its anklebones. The trackway did superficially resemble an elongate 'human' track. But occasionally the trackway showed all three of the dinosaur's toes. We also analyzed "human tracks" reported to have been removed from the riverbed, and compared the characteristics of these "tracks" with a genuine dinosaur track taken from the riverbed. We concluded on the basis of several lines of evidence that the "human tracks" were all carvings. The hypothesis that the trackways were human was falsified. We published the results [see http://origins.swau.edu/papers/dinos/tracks/default.html], but for ten years those Christian colleagues using the trackways to promote their views on origins ignored our results."
Dobzhansky again, on YEC tricks with quotations (http://www.2think.org/dobzhansky.shtml) : "Disagreements and clashes of opinion are rife among biologists, as they should be in a living and growing science. Antievolutionists mistake, or pretend to mistake, these disagreements as indications of dubiousness of the entire doctrine of evolution. Their favorite sport is stringing together quotations, carefully and sometimes expertly taken out of context, to show that nothing is really established or agreed upon among evolutionists. Some of my colleagues and myself have been amused and amazed to read ourselves quoted in a way showing that we are really antievolutionists under the skin."
A Christian debunks the YEC thermodynamics/information theory nonsense: (http://members.aol.com/steamdoc/writings/thermo.html) : "I have a Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering (UC-Berkeley, 1988), specializing in "Molecular Thermodynamics," which combines classical and statistical thermodynamics to describe the thermophysical properties of fluids... I am an evangelical Christian... We should be diligent in our efforts to avoid bearing false witness, whether the victim is our next-door neighbor or Ludwig Boltzmann."
YECs debunk YEC: arguments repudiated by "Answers in Genesis" (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp) : Includes debunks of 'Darwin recanted on his death-bed'; 'Moon-Dust thickness proves a young moon'; The 'logn day of Joshua'; ‘Woolly mammoths were snap frozen during the Flood catastrophe’; ‘The Castenedolo and Calaveras human remains'; The 'Japanese plesiosaur'; some of their 'thermodynamic' nonsense; ‘If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes today?’ ‘Archaeopteryx is a fraud’. ‘There are no beneficial mutations.’; ‘No new species have been produced.’; ‘Paluxy tracks prove that humans and dinosaurs co-existed’; quoting Darwin’s quote about the absurdity of eye evolution; ‘Ron Wyatt has found Noah’s Ark’; Many of Carl Baugh’s creation ‘evidences’; ‘Evolution is just a theory’; ‘There are no transitional forms.’
Geology and YEC: a former YEC tells how he came into contact with reality (http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm) : "After six months of looking, I finally found work as a geophysicist working for a seismic company. Within a year, I was processing seismic data for Atlantic Richfield. This was where I first became exposed to the problems geology presented to the idea of a global flood
I worked hard over the next few years to solve these problems. I published 20+ items in the Creation Research Society Quarterly. I would listen to ICR, have discussions with people like Slusher, Gish, Austin, Barnes and also discuss things with some of their graduates that I had hired.
In order to get closer to the data and know it better, with the hope of finding a solution, I changed subdivisions of my work in 1980. I left seismic processing and went into seismic interpretation where I would have to deal with more geologic data. My horror at what I was seeing only increased. There was a major problem; the data I was seeing at work, was not agreeing with what I had been taught as a Christian. Doubts about what I was writing and teaching began to grow. Unfortunately, my fellow young earth creationists were not willing to listen to the problems.
Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.
"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true?"
That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either."
Theodosius Dobzhansky, eminent biologist and devout Christian (http://www.2think.org/dobzhansky.shtml) : "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution... It is wrong to hold creation and evolution as mutually exclusive alternatives. I am a creationist and an evolutionist. Evolution is God’s, or Nature’s method of creation. Creation is not an event that happened in 4004 BC; it is a process that began some 10 billion years ago and is still under way... Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry."
Christians fight Young Earth Creationism in court (http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/2437/devil.htm) : "The depth of anti-creationist sentiment among mainstream Christians was perhaps best illustrated during the Arkansas "Balanced Treatment" trial. All but two of the plaintiffs who sued to have the creationist law thrown out were representatives of mainstream religious organizations and churches, including ... the resident Bishops of the United Methodist, Episcopalian, Roman Catholic and African Methodist Episcopal churches, the Arkansas head of the Presbyterian Church, and individual clergy from the United Methodist, Southern Baptist and Presbyterian churches."
Confessions of a former YEC (http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Thebes/7755/Paluxygullibility.html) : "I am no newcomer to young earth creationism. I grew up with it. I believed it. Then I discovered it was wrong. I've had many, many years of experience with YEC. I'm used to the habitual carelessness with details, the attitude of remaining obstinate in error, and the endless repetition of anecdotal stories that characterizes so much of the YEC community. These are straightforward facts that non-YECs who have experience with YECs attest to, and there are even some YECs who have honestly acknowledged that these are problems characteristic of the "YEC culture." (Indeed, before I became a non-YEC, I was one of those YECs that acknowledged that.)"
Evolution is not an "atheist theory" : a Christian explains (http://members.aol.com/steamdoc/writings/evolution.html) : "The theory of evolution has been used as a tool by those arguing for atheism. However, as we have seen, this is not a valid use of the science itself; it is a philosophical extrapolation abetted by a "God of the Gaps" outlook. To reject the science because some abuse it in this manner would be to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Around 1800, some were using the determinism and broad explanatory success of Newton's science to advocate atheism. I don't know how churches responded, but it would have been a sad misdirection of effort for them to attack Newton's science."
Should we teach creationism in school? Former President Carter speaks out (www.cnn.com/2004/EDUCATION/01/30/georgia.evolution/) : "The existing and long-standing use of the word 'evolution' in our state's textbooks has not adversely affected Georgians' belief in the omnipotence of God as creator of the universe. There can be no incompatibility between Christian faith and proven facts concerning geology, biology, and astronomy.
There is no need to teach that stars can fall out of the sky and land on a flat Earth in order to defend our religious faith."
FOOTNOTE : some more interesting Presidential quotes:
"Of course like every other man of intelligence and education I do believe in organic evolution. It surprises me at this late date such questions should be raised." --- Woodrow Wilson.
"Thank Heaven I sat at the feet of Darwin and Huxley." --- Theodore Roosevelt
Creationists who admit common ancestry: a self-avowed Creationist writes (http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/cmnctsry.html) : "Proverbs 12:19 (NLT): "Truth stands the test of time; lies are soon exposed." I do not claim (nor do I even think) that creationist/IDists who oppose common ancestry are lying, in the sense of knowingly opposing truth and promoting falsehood. Rather, I claim (and think) that they are unknowingly opposing truth and promoting falsehood. The bottom line is that if common ancestry is true (and I am persuaded by the evidence that it is), then creationist/IDists who oppose common ancestry are opposing truth and promoting falsehood. "
Radiometric dating works: a Christian explains (http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Wiens.html) :"Radiometric dating--the process of determining the age of rocks from the decay of their radioactive elements--has been in widespread use for over half a century. There are over forty such techniques, each using a different radioactive element or a different way of measuring them. It has become increasingly clear that these radiometric dating techniques agree with each other and as a whole, present a coherent picture in which the Earth was created a very long time ago. Further evidence comes from the complete agreement between radiometric dates and other dating methods such as counting tree rings or glacier ice core layers. Many Christians have been led to distrust radiometric dating and are completely unaware of the great number of laboratory measurements that have shown these methods to be consistent. Many are also unaware that Bible-believing Christians are among those actively involved in radiometric dating."
A Christian and geologist debunks the Paluxy tracks (http://origins.swau.edu/papers/geologic/geology/index.html): "Along with a couple of colleagues, I next traveled to Glen Rose, Texas. The Paluxy River in Glen Rose reportedly contained human and dinosaur tracks side-by-side. These reports were being used widely as evidence to support the coexistence of humans and dinosaurs, which according to conventional geology were separated in time by 100 million years. Thus the Bible was right, the geologists were wrong. We concluded that if there were such tracks in the riverbed, it should be relatively easy to settle the matter. We arrived in late summer when the river was dry, and carefully analyzed the exposed trackways for evidence that human tracks were present alongside those of dinosaurs. We found the expected dinosaur tracks and a trackway composed of curious elongated tracks made by a dinosaur walking on its anklebones. The trackway did superficially resemble an elongate 'human' track. But occasionally the trackway showed all three of the dinosaur's toes. We also analyzed "human tracks" reported to have been removed from the riverbed, and compared the characteristics of these "tracks" with a genuine dinosaur track taken from the riverbed. We concluded on the basis of several lines of evidence that the "human tracks" were all carvings. The hypothesis that the trackways were human was falsified. We published the results [see http://origins.swau.edu/papers/dinos/tracks/default.html], but for ten years those Christian colleagues using the trackways to promote their views on origins ignored our results."
Dobzhansky again, on YEC tricks with quotations (http://www.2think.org/dobzhansky.shtml) : "Disagreements and clashes of opinion are rife among biologists, as they should be in a living and growing science. Antievolutionists mistake, or pretend to mistake, these disagreements as indications of dubiousness of the entire doctrine of evolution. Their favorite sport is stringing together quotations, carefully and sometimes expertly taken out of context, to show that nothing is really established or agreed upon among evolutionists. Some of my colleagues and myself have been amused and amazed to read ourselves quoted in a way showing that we are really antievolutionists under the skin."
A Christian debunks the YEC thermodynamics/information theory nonsense: (http://members.aol.com/steamdoc/writings/thermo.html) : "I have a Ph.D. in Chemical Engineering (UC-Berkeley, 1988), specializing in "Molecular Thermodynamics," which combines classical and statistical thermodynamics to describe the thermophysical properties of fluids... I am an evangelical Christian... We should be diligent in our efforts to avoid bearing false witness, whether the victim is our next-door neighbor or Ludwig Boltzmann."
YECs debunk YEC: arguments repudiated by "Answers in Genesis" (http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp) : Includes debunks of 'Darwin recanted on his death-bed'; 'Moon-Dust thickness proves a young moon'; The 'logn day of Joshua'; ‘Woolly mammoths were snap frozen during the Flood catastrophe’; ‘The Castenedolo and Calaveras human remains'; The 'Japanese plesiosaur'; some of their 'thermodynamic' nonsense; ‘If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes today?’ ‘Archaeopteryx is a fraud’. ‘There are no beneficial mutations.’; ‘No new species have been produced.’; ‘Paluxy tracks prove that humans and dinosaurs co-existed’; quoting Darwin’s quote about the absurdity of eye evolution; ‘Ron Wyatt has found Noah’s Ark’; Many of Carl Baugh’s creation ‘evidences’; ‘Evolution is just a theory’; ‘There are no transitional forms.’
Geology and YEC: a former YEC tells how he came into contact with reality (http://home.entouch.net/dmd/gstory.htm) : "After six months of looking, I finally found work as a geophysicist working for a seismic company. Within a year, I was processing seismic data for Atlantic Richfield. This was where I first became exposed to the problems geology presented to the idea of a global flood
I worked hard over the next few years to solve these problems. I published 20+ items in the Creation Research Society Quarterly. I would listen to ICR, have discussions with people like Slusher, Gish, Austin, Barnes and also discuss things with some of their graduates that I had hired.
In order to get closer to the data and know it better, with the hope of finding a solution, I changed subdivisions of my work in 1980. I left seismic processing and went into seismic interpretation where I would have to deal with more geologic data. My horror at what I was seeing only increased. There was a major problem; the data I was seeing at work, was not agreeing with what I had been taught as a Christian. Doubts about what I was writing and teaching began to grow. Unfortunately, my fellow young earth creationists were not willing to listen to the problems.
Nothing that young-earth creationists had taught me about geology turned out to be true. I took a poll of my ICR graduate friends who have worked in the oil industry. I asked them one question.
"From your oil industry experience, did any fact that you were taught at ICR, which challenged current geological thinking, turn out in the long run to be true?"
That is a very simple question. One man, Steve Robertson, who worked for Shell grew real silent on the phone, sighed and softly said 'No!' A very close friend that I had hired at Arco, after hearing the question, exclaimed, "Wait a minute. There has to be one!" But he could not name one. I can not name one. No one else could either."
