Christian, Morality, and Materialism

[Jet Grind]

Christian said this in another thread:

Originally posted by Chrsitian
I argued this point in a thread, morality is irrelevant if you are an materialist/atheist.

Can this person point out why or can someone direct me to the thread he's talking about. I'd love to see the case he makes for this.

 

[Alyeska]

This Christian obviously has no understanding of sociology. Morality is not the sole domain of religion and has infact been around longer then organized religion ever has. It is a fallacy to assume that morality is solely bassed in religion. The simple fact that no religions can agree to a simple moral code and the fact that even religions such as Christianity change their moral code quite frequently states there is no universal moral code.

In other words this Christian you speak of is full of it.

(post edited to remove swear word upon learning of forum rules against swearing)

 

[sparklecat]

Perhaps absolute would fit better than relevant?


So people being unable to agree on something means that there is no truth of the matter?

 

[Yahweh]

Damn immoral atheists...

I guess I forgot worldviews dictate morality...

And I dont think I got the memo that says Christians can feel better about themselves for demonizing the beliefs of others...


Wowwie wow, is my face red...

 

[Dorian Gray]

Morality is irrelevant to atheism? Holy smokes! Excuse me, I have some people to kill.

 

[Some Friggin Guy]

Morality is irrelevant to atheism? Holy smokes! Excuse me, I have some people to kill.

You're just starting that NOW? You have some catching up to do if you want to over-take the score of...say the Catholic church.

 

[the_ignored]

Hah! You're not going to like this!

Have you ever seen so much bull in one article??

 

[rdaneel]

I have just the place to KILL EVERYONE!!!

 

[slimshady2357]

Perhaps absolute would fit better than relevant?


So people being unable to agree on something means that there is no truth of the matter?

Hmmmm?

"I argued this point in a thread, morality is absolute if you are an materialist/atheist."

Nope, that doesn't work

How about:

"I argued this point in a thread, morality is irabsolute if you are an materialist/atheist."

I don't think that's it either....

But I do really like:

"I argued this point in a thread, morality is not absolute if you are an materialist/atheist."

Yes, I know, that's what you meant

Oh, and I believe that Yahzi would argue against that, I don't want to label him (but I will!), but I think that he is an atheist/materialist and he believes morality is objectivly absolute.

Adam

 

[sparklecat]

Yes, well, I figured most here should be able to figure it out


Does he? I'd be interested to hear his argument for that.

 

[Keneke]

Since no one has said it in the thread yet....Welcome Alyeska!

 

[Christian]

You have taken the statement out of context. In this new thread the statement should read like this:

Morality should be irrelevant if you are an materialist/atheist.

 

[Dymanic]

Originally posted by Christian

Morality should be irrelevant if you are an materialist/atheist

There's the assertion. Now let's hear the argument.

 

[Christian]

Morals are codes of conduct. Now, from the materialist/atheist’s perspective:

1. They are useless if they can't be enforced on others. (What is the use of adhering to a code of conduct that can’t be enforceable?)
2. There are no positive of negative external consequences of following moral codes of conduct.

I make an academic distinction between moral codes of conduct and lega or social codes of conducts. Once a rule of conduct becomes legal, then it ceases to be moral rule and becomes a legal rule.

When I say morality, I mean (it should be understood to be) the set of rules (of do’s and don’ts) that are placed upon oneself by oneself and are only enforceable by oneself. (If you are a materialist/atheist there is no other choice of definition).

 

[MRC_Hans]

You have taken the statement out of context. In this new thread the statement should read like this:

Morality should be irrelevant if you are an materialist/atheist.

That argument presupposes that morals are rooted in religion, that religion is the cause of morals. That, however, is not an accepted axiom. In fact, as a materialist, I hold the opposite to be the case: Religion is the product of morals. The evidence for this is that morals and codes of ethics preceded all of the currently existing religions, and that primitive cultures aquire moral codes before they aquire organized religion.

A secondary argument would be that religion has certainly not stopped people from being immoral .

Hans

 

[Upchurch]

What was the original thread and what was the context of the statement?

 

[Christian]

MRC_Hans wrote:
That argument presupposes that morals are rooted in religion, that religion is the cause of morals.

Why would it presuppose that? It does not at all.

Upchurch wrote:
What was the original thread and what was the context of the statement?

I can't remember the name, it was a while back. I'm trying to give it context here.

 

[Keneke]

When I say morality, I mean (it should be understood to be) the set of rules (of do’s and don’ts) that are placed upon oneself by oneself and are only enforceable by oneself. (If you are a materialist/atheist there is no other choice of definition).

By your argument, an atheist would never be able to successfully diet or eat healthy. Neither would atheists ever be able to abstain from sex before marriage or resist downloading pirated mp3's. The failure of any of these activities are socially acceptable (being overweight, premarital sex, pirating mp3's), yet I am sure some atheists abstain from some or all of these activities.

 

[Christian]

Keneke wrote:
By your argument, an atheist would never be able to successfully diet or eat healthy. Neither would atheists ever be able to abstain from sex before marriage or resist downloading pirated mp3's. The failure of any of these activities are socially acceptable (being overweight, premarital sex, pirating mp3's), yet I am sure some atheists abstain from some or all of these activities.

Eating healthy has positive external consequences. Please read my statement again.

What are the positive external consequences of abstaining from sex (the ones you are thinking about)?

Downloading pirated mp3's is illegal (more than socially unacceptable).

Most atheist don't abstain from premarital sex and find no reason why they should.

 

[Keneke]

Alright then, please list some mundane activities which are moral, but have no social or legal ramifications. Then tell me that no atheist would do these activities.