Chistianity 1 and Christianity 2 --- spot the difference

Dr Adequate

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Here is the Apostle's Creed. This is how Christianity got started:

1. I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth:
2. And in Jesus Christ, his only begotten Son, our Lord:
3. Who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary:
4. Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell:
5. The third day he rose again from the dead:
6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
8. I believe in the Holy Ghost:
9. I believe in the holy catholic church: the communion of saints:
10. The forgiveness of sins:
11. The resurrection of the body:
12. And the life everlasting. Amen.

Now, let's leave them for a couple of hundred years, while they develop an authoritarian power structure and a theology that would make a cat laugh... I give you --- The Athanasian Creed. Spot the differences.

1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

Whew...
 
Trinity explained

Brian Hope : Explain the Trinity.

Charlie McManus : Hmmm... well, it's a bit of a bugger.

Charlie McManus : You've got the Father, the Son and the holy ghost. But the three are one - like a shamrock, my old priest used to say. "Three leaves, but one leaf." Now, the father sent down the son, who was love, and then when he went away, he sent down the holy spirit, who came down in the form of a...

Brian Hope : You told me already - a ghost.

Charlie McManus : No, a dove.

Brian Hope : The dove was a ghost?

Charlie McManus : No, the ghost was a dove.

Brian Hope : Let me try and summarize this: God is his son. And his son is God. But his son moonlights as a holy ghost, a holy spirit, and a dove. And they all send each other, even though they're all one and the same thing.

Charlie McManus : You've got it. You really could be a nun
Click to expand...

"Nuns on the Run" (1990)
 
#1 seems more concerned with the exposition of supposed truths, whereas #2 is aimed more at the necessity of believing those truths.

Curiously, #2 contains a sort of indirect reference by means of its last point. This may have the effect of protecting the belief against attacks.

That is, #1 can be attacked directly; A modified #1 that included "Believe this or else" could also be undermined. #2 goes all the way with "Believe that: you should believe this or else--- or else".
 
Oddly enough, I've only ever heard my Episcopal family rattle off the first one. I've never heard the second.

I'm planning to give my mom a call tonight. I want to look into this fact.

Quick question though, the latter, though it mentions the "catholic faith" is it the Catholic faith?
 
I believe C(?)atholics use the Nicene creed (which also contains the word "catholic".

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Click to expand...
 
Christian theology is full of this kind of retrofitting. They started weeding out the 'heresies' with these creeds. Gnosticism survived until the Albigensian crusades, though. Basically the Christian theologians, from the Church Fathers on, seem to have waited for a problem to be raised, then retrofitted an explanation. Hence the convoluted Trinity ideas that arose when the more sceptical followers asked how Christianity could be monotheistic when both Yahweh and Jesus were both essentially being worshipped as gods.

I doubt that Christianity would have become a world religion were it not for the emperor Constantine's wife, Helena. It was Helena who was the devout believer. Despite the 'Hinc Vincit' story attributed to Constantine, it seems that he hedged his bets. It was not unusual for Romans to include new, 'stronger magic' gods in their pantheon. The cult of Mithras had flourished in Rome, and had some similarities to Christianity. But it was Helena who visited the Holy Land and sought out anything she could link with a once-living saviour. She 'discovered' the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, found bits of the 'true cross', and named the 'stations' on the road to Golgotha which she identified with the place of crucifixion.

Without her husband's imprimatur, though, Christianity might still have floundered. When it became the official religion of the Roman Empire, founded on the Roman Catholic apostolic tradition supposedly begun by Peter, it gained credence and authority. It was probably pragmatic politics that swayed Constantine. The Romans did not appreciate the wishy-washy side of Christianity. The 'love your neighbour' and 'good Samaritan' side did not fit in with Roman society which was aggressively imperialistic and could not exist, never mind flourish, without slaves.

But Constantine's Christ came with a sword -- he backed armies in battle. That, the Romans of Constantinople could relate to.

Since the Council of Nicea, the retrofitting has continued, as new generations asked the fundamental questions (often to their great peril). It was quite late in the day when Mary's 'virginity' was being ridiculed in medieval passion plays that were very sceptical. The theologians answered with a sop to Mariolatry -- the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption. Mary was not to be worshipped like a pagan goddess, but she was to be venerated.

And for more retrofitting look at all the transubstantiation and consubstantiation nonsense.

Make it complicated enough and the ignorant will buy it. Make the lies bigger and everyone will buy it. That seems to have worked on the whole.

Yet the very schisms in Christianity should logically invalidate it, even for Pascal's wager. Still, though, the various flocks try to annihilate 'the other' in the name of a supposed loving god. There was a joke going round about an atheist going into a sectarian pub in Northern Ireland:

"Are you a Protestant or a Catholic?" he was asked.

"I'm an atheist." said he.

"Aye, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?" came the rejoinder.

The whole thing is crazy. Will the human race ever 'grow up'?
 
LostAngeles said:
Oddly enough, I've only ever heard my Episcopal family rattle off the first one. I've never heard the second.

I'm planning to give my mom a call tonight. I want to look into this fact.

Quick question though, the latter, though it mentions the "catholic faith" is it the Catholic faith?
Click to expand...

The Athanasian Creed predates the Reformation by a few zillion years. (6th century?) But you almost never hear it outside of the
RC and the Catholic-lite Anglicans.
 
LostAngeles said:
Oddly enough, I've only ever heard my Episcopal family rattle off the first one. I've never heard the second.

I'm planning to give my mom a call tonight. I want to look into this fact.

Quick question though, the latter, though it mentions the "catholic faith" is it the Catholic faith?
Click to expand...
That's the American version of the Church of England, yes?
I was brought up in the CofE and that's the same creed I remember. It's catholic with a small "c", meaning universal, not Roman Catholic. (However, the RC creed is almost identical IIRC)

The CofE encompasses a broad range of practices from evangelist/happy clappy through to High Church/Anglo-Catholic complete with insence, confessions etc.
 
General explanations:

catholic with a small 'c' means, roughly, universal or undivided. 'The catholic church' means all christians everywhere, 'catholic war' means a world war, 'catholic tastes' means eclectic tastes, etc.

Catholic (large 'C') is a description of a paricular style of Christian worship, high in ritualism, with a strong emphasis on the communion.

Anglo-Catholic is the High Church end of the Anglican faith.

Roman Catholic is the church that didn't break away from the vatican/pope - that which isn't a protestant church (or one of the 'orthodox' churches).
 
The Mighty Thor said:
There was a joke going round about an atheist going into a sectarian pub in Northern Ireland:
"Are you a Protestant or a Catholic?" he was asked.
"I'm an atheist." said he.
"Aye, but are you a Protestant atheist or a Catholic atheist?" came the rejoinder.
Click to expand...
Well, I knew a Northern Irish Jew who claimed he got asked whether he was a Protestant Jew or a Catholic Jew... if he was joking, he was doing it with a very straight face. I say we build a big wall around Ulster and throw a few weapons over it now and then. They'll sort it out one way or the other.
 
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