Chinese Say They're Building 'Impossible' Space Drive

Viper Daimao

Critical Thinker
Joined
Jun 25, 2007
Messages
496
China claims to have confirmed the theory behind the EmDrive. If true, it could be a pretty big deal for satellites and in the space race. Of course this is the same China that put out a press release of their successful rocket launch before it happened.
A news story describing a successful launch of China's long-awaited space mission and including detailed dialogue between astronauts launched on the Internet Thursday, hours before the rocket had even left the ground.

The country's official news agency Xinhua posted the article on its Web site Thursday, and remained there for much of the day before it was taken down.

Previous discussion on the emdrive: here
 
Well let us all hope that they do have one, but not hold our breaths. Seriously, if functional, that technology has some incredibly cool (and useful) applications.

Propulsion from electricity in space without fuel... *daydreams*
 
You know what they say about things sounding too good to be true...:)

In addition, if there was really any chance at all that this idea would fly (if you'll pardon the pun) I'm sure there are certain covert agencies that would be all over it like, well, flies.
 
It's not like there aren't plenty of drive schemes already that aren't constrained by traditional Velikovskian mathematics. Even assuming this thing works, what is to be gained?
 
According to the wikipedia article he has never submitted his idea to a peer-reviewed scientific journal, despite repeated requests that he do so.

Haven't we all been through this before?
 
Well, it's obviously impossible. It violates conservation of energy and conservation of momentum, as well as the laws of thermodynamics, general relativity (creation of energy violates general covariance), and probably more.

Even if you don't believe me, a reasonable upper bound on the probability that such a machine could work is 1/N, where N is the number of perpetual motion machines that have been proposed over the centuries. N is pretty large.
 
Well hell, if they actually build it, it obviously works.

I wouldn't invest any money in it.

Really, China likes to make sure that we're all aware they're not really sane over there. It keeps us on our toes.
 
It's not like there aren't plenty of drive schemes already that aren't constrained by traditional Velikovskian mathematics. Even assuming this thing works, what is to be gained?

What's to be gained, from what I've read is:

a) No toxic fuels.

b) Easier to guide.

c) More endurance.

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/09/chinese-buildin.html

I'm still trying to convince myself it's an open system. I am merely a peon in the world of matters such as these. -The previous statement is a public service announcement.-
 
Here is a link No-propellant drive prepares for space and beyond

Here is a quote that sends alarm bells ringing in my head.

The crucial part, as he explained, is that it is a relativistic effect that arises because the waves being reflected at the two ends of the conical cavity into which the microwaves are injected have different effective velocities, and thus different frames of reference, and that a closed microwave wave guide is an ‘open system’ in terms of relativity.

Microwaves move at the speed of light. Frames of reference are not important.
 
What's to be gained, from what I've read is:

a) No toxic fuels.

b) Easier to guide.

c) More endurance.

http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/09/chinese-buildin.html

I'm still trying to convince myself it's an open system. I am merely a peon in the world of matters such as these. -The previous statement is a public service announcement.-

Whoah boy, I made a stupid! That should read Tsiolkovskian, but given the probability that this thing isn't a mass of pseudoscience, perhaps that was a Freudian slip.

Anyway, look into solar sails, magnetic sails, magnetic tethers, M2P2 propulsion schemes, and to a lesser extent reaction wheels. There are plenty of ways to accomplish A,B,C without resorting to questionable physics. Hell, even ion drives will get you most of what you want.
 
Here is a link No-propellant drive prepares for space and beyond

Here is a quote that sends alarm bells ringing in my head.



Microwaves move at the speed of light. Frames of reference are not important.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel...tivity-drive-the-end-of-wings-and-wheels.html

" If the cavity is to move, it must be pushed by something. A rocket engine, for example, is propelled by hot exhaust gases pushing on the rear of the rocket. How can photons confined inside a cavity make the cavity move? This is where relativity and the strange nature of light come in. Since the microwave photons in the waveguide are travelling close to the speed of light, any attempt to resolve the forces they generate must take account of Einstein's special theory of relativity. This says that the microwaves move in their own frame of reference. In other words they move independently of the cavity - as if they are outside it. As a result, the microwaves themselves exert a push on the cavity."

I'm pondering.:eye-poppi
 
" If the cavity is to move, it must be pushed by something. A rocket engine, for example, is propelled by hot exhaust gases pushing on the rear of the rocket. How can photons confined inside a cavity make the cavity move? This is where relativity and the strange nature of light come in. Since the microwave photons in the waveguide are travelling close to the speed of light, any attempt to resolve the forces they generate must take account of Einstein's special theory of relativity. This says that the microwaves move in their own frame of reference. In other words they move independently of the cavity - as if they are outside it. As a result, the microwaves themselves exert a push on the cavity."

I'm pondering.:eye-poppi

Don't. It's gibberish. Moreover, it's wrong gibberish.

It's never a good idea to read the New Scientist if you actually want to understand something. Normally, you'd want to go read the peer-reviewed paper in question, except...
 
Whoah boy, I made a stupid! That should read Tsiolkovskian, but given the probability that this thing isn't a mass of pseudoscience, perhaps that was a Freudian slip.

Anyway, look into solar sails, magnetic sails, magnetic tethers, M2P2 propulsion schemes, and to a lesser extent reaction wheels. There are plenty of ways to accomplish A,B,C without resorting to questionable physics. Hell, even ion drives will get you most of what you want.

Whoa there. Pseudoscience scares me. The sails I have a working knowledge. Propulsion schemes are not new to me, but I am not overly versed. I am the first to say I am not educated enough in this arena. And, for my grand finale, I'm not selling this man's schtick, I'm just looking at it. :p

Questionable physics, well, I like to watch people play.

I'm going to go read upon ion drives and a tad more on proplusion schemes. I remember enough to know that NASA has worked with this concept.

I'm still searching for something to explain the microwaves with regards to making this thing an open system, etc. I'm not grabbing the image entirely.
 
Don't. It's gibberish. Moreover, it's wrong gibberish.

It's never a good idea to read the New Scientist if you actually want to understand something. Normally, you'd want to go read the peer-reviewed paper in question, except...

Backing away from the gibberish.

Yes, I have not found a peer-reviewed paper. That's working against considering this man's notion. I can only find that he submitted his theory paper to NewScientist, which doesn't qualify as a peer review. His credentials and concept do leave room to wonder, however.

I have read his abstract presentation.

I remain curious.
 
Questionable physics, well, I like to watch people play.

I'll drink to that. It could at least be amusing.

I'm going to go read upon ion drives and a tad more on proplusion schemes. I remember enough to know that NASA has worked with this concept.

I'm still searching for something to explain the microwaves with regards to making this thing an open system, etc. I'm not grabbing the image entirely.


The description for this putative "drive" also makes my head spin. Do microwaves leave one end? That could produce trust, I suppose, but not much and there would be more efficient ways of doing the same thing.

The cliff notes version of rocket propulsion is that you have to fling stuff to go. The faster you fling the reaction mass, the more efficient it is. For a conventional reaction-mass based system the efficiency is referred to as specific impulse (Isp). For some reason known only to people who are better at math than I am, specific impulse is measured in seconds; the higher the better.

Solid fuel rockets are 350 seconds, tops. Liquid fuel rockets the the SSME can get into the 400's, but at a significant hit in thrust to weight ratio and complexity. With advanced nozzle designs and exotic (and extremely toxic) propellants it should be possible to push Isp into the low 500 second range, and such designs have been demonstrated but are of questionable utility. Who wants a rocket that runs on flourine?

By running hydrogen or methane through a nuclear reactor Isp well into the 600's is possible, and with more exotic reactor designs it's possible to push the number far into the 1000's and 2000's. Simple demonstrators were built in the 50's IIRC. Adding a nuclear reactor to a rocket adds a whole new layer of complexity and nail biting, of course. Thrust to weight ratio is also inferior to chemical rockets.

Ion engines use electrical fields powered by solar arrays to spit out chemically inert propellant, usually a noble gas. They have specific impulse well into the 3000's, but thrust measured in fractions of a gram. For long term missions though, the technology is well demonstrated and effective. See Deep Space One.

And then you have the more exotic, theoretical designs that rely on fusion or antimatter or something crazy like that.

But there is another approach; why bother using a rocket at all when there's plenty of momentum being supplied by the sun? Using either a very thing sheet of mylar to bounce sunlight, or a magnetic field propogated by some means to reflect solar wind, it is possible to get delta-v with no expendature of reaction mass whatsoever.

So why muck about with pseudoscience?
 
I'll drink to that. It could at least be amusing.

The description for this putative "drive" also makes my head spin. Do microwaves leave one end? That could produce trust, I suppose, but not much and there would be more efficient ways of doing the same thing.

So why muck about with pseudoscience?

Well, it's comforting to see that my not getting a complete image of the microwaves/open system is not unique. :)

It's pointless to much about with pseudoscience, ultimately. Albeit interesting, and I supposed once in a while people learn things from it.

We'll see if this guy gets his invention 'off the ground'.
 
Where does it get the energy from? Zero-Point? Does it require a battery?

Also, does ZPE if used end up eventually causing the universe to collapse or implode?

INRM
BTW: Regarding that statement about the frames of reference, do you think they've figured out some way to alter the speed of light?
 

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