Chinese Discovered America

[phildonnia]

Just a FYI, on PBS tonight is a show about the controversial "Chinese Discovered America" hypothesis.

Last I heard, the 15th century Chinese were perfectly capable of such voyages of discovery, but there was no evidence that they had.

IIRC, there was some underground imaging that showed a large blob buried in the Sacramento River, which was either an ancient tree, or, to the trained eye, obviously a Chinese ship.

In the same vein, drilling in the area unearthed some fragments that might have been fine Ming porcelain, or perhaps they were typical artifacts of drilling into clay soil.

Here's a resource to prepare you if you intend to watch:
http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/books/01/13/1421/

 

[Khonshu]

Interesting. The article seems to indicate that there is more evidence than I believed there was. Then again, it read like an ad for the book. I want to hear more about the Chinese junks that are older than Columbus that are "confirmed".

I guess I'll wait & see.

 

[Bikewer]

Yep, plan to watch that. I watched the Scientific Frontiers show last night on the earliest migrants to the Americas, quite interesting.
Pretty good evidence to indicate that the Clovis peoples might have come from Europe, rather than Siberia, with the Siberian migrations following different routes.

 

[aries]

chinese discovering america ?

Hello

Unlike the (unsubstantiated) claim that the Chinese discovered America, there now seems to be good and solid evidence pointing
out that the Vikings actually discoverd America. (or at least New Found Land, and the Island of Labrador, I think).

Leif the Happy (I think) is said to have discovered Vine Land about the year 1000 (or so). This was long seen to be a myth, but a persistant Norwegian archeologist has devoted his life
to finding evidence for this claim.

And surprisingly, to all, (most of all him) he found them.

He found, I think, evidence of af Norwegian (Viking) settlement
on the island of Labrador (or New Found Land) I think.

I have seen this in a scientific programme i my country, Denmark, Europe. And the scientific programme is very known for its fact checking.

Also, Let us not forget that that the Native Americans were the ones who first found (and discovered) America (not knowing of course that they had found America )

aries

 

[Bikewer]

Hehe- the time factor for the migrations the PBS series talked about was somewhere in the range of 16,000 years ago.

The theory presented was that Clovis hunters working the edges of the ice sheet covering the North Atlantic (hunting and fishing) would have been able to reach North America by this route.

Recent finds of similar-to-Clovis points on the East coast seem to lend credence to the idea.

They pointed out as well that examination of Siberian artifacts unearthed for the last 25 years or so fail to show any Clovis-like items whatever.

 

[shecky]

I just saw about the latter half of the PBS show, which seems to cover some key parts of a recent book by Gavin Menzies, 1421-The Year China Discovered the World.

Well, some of the evidence presented as proof the Chinese explored the Americas was a little wacky. Such as the Bimini Road (which is usually presented as a remnant of Atlantis, Bermuda Triangle, etc.). A supposed Chinese-built edifice in Newport RI, remains of junks everywhere, and so on.

Fortunately, the show was also critical, countering several of Menzies' points using both alternate scholars and reason.

It's a fascinating idea, that the Chinese circumnavigated the world at that time. But too much of the evidence given seems pretty speculative. Not that it couldn't have been possible. Just the ideas and evidence presented seems too fantastic to accept uncritically.

 

[TriangleMan]

Re: chinese discovering america ?

He found, I think, evidence of af Norwegian (Viking) settlement
on the island of Labrador (or New Found Land) I think.

He found a lot of evidence. The Norweigan you're referring to is Helge Instad. I think the archaeological community have no doubt that the Vikings landed in Newfoundland around 1000 AD.

 

[crimresearch]

Its a shame they didn't get Randi to narrate that show as an example of debunking.
By the end, each of Menzies' pieces of evidence were pretty much picked apart.
He however, remained unimpressed by any of the contrary evidence.

 

[headscratcher4]

Would have thought that the first people to wander over from Asia 12-20,000 years ago "discovered" America...maybe they were Chinese.

Hate to be PC, but the term "discovered" in this context implies it was missing or un-known. Not missing and certainly Known to the flurishing cultures that existed here..."discoverd" works for the sake of describing the creation of extra-European empires.

 

[phildonnia]

Would have thought that the first people to wander over from Asia 12-20,000 years ago "discovered" America...maybe they were Chinese.

Hate to be PC, but the term "discovered" in this context implies it was missing or un-known. Not missing and certainly Known to the flurishing cultures that existed here..."discoverd" works for the sake of describing the creation of extra-European empires.

Well, if you were only being pedantic (instead of PC), then I could forgive you. In that case, I would agree that "discovered", by its dictionary definition is vague and incorrect.

The term "discovered" here means "discovered first by an old-world people in historical times".

A convenient term "mutatis mutandis" is shorthand for this post and all similar ones.

 

[headscratcher4]

Well, if you were only being pedantic (instead of PC), then I could forgive you. In that case, I would agree that "discovered", by its dictionary definition is vague and incorrect.

The term "discovered" here means "discovered first by an old-world people in historical times".

A convenient term "mutatis mutandis" is shorthand for this post and all similar ones.

It is actually a question of perspective: Whose old world? Native Americans had likely been here about 20,000 years...seems like their world was pretty "old" to me (pedantically speaking, of course... ).

 

[crimresearch]

It is actually a question of perspective: Whose old world? Native Americans had likely been here about 20,000 years...seems like their world was pretty "old" to me (pedantically speaking, of course... ).

Uhhmmm...need clarification...by Native Americans, do we mean the current group claiming that title, who somehow got rid of the inhabitants that were here before them, or the previous group of occupants?

And by Chinese, do we mean the literal 'sons of Han', or some other group that had been living in Asia for 15,000 years or so?
(One of the questions that Menzies danced around during the debunking part of the show).

 

[Voob]

there now seems to be good and solid evidence pointing
out that the Vikings actually discoverd America. (or at least New Found Land, and the Island of Labrador, I think).

(nitpick)
The island is Newfoundland. Labrador is part of the mainland.
(/nitpick)

 

[headscratcher4]

Uhhmmm...need clarification...by Native Americans, do we mean the current group claiming that title, who somehow got rid of the inhabitants that were here before them, or the previous group of occupants?

And by Chinese, do we mean the literal 'sons of Han', or some other group that had been living in Asia for 15,000 years or so?
(One of the questions that Menzies danced around during the debunking part of the show).

My current, possibly inadequate understanding, is that by "native" Americans, I mean the descendants of the people who wandered/migrated across the ice of the Baring Straight apx. 20,000 years ago. This, of course, may be completely wrong ...

All I was trying to get to was that there was an "old" world in North & South America...and generally, "discovered" as used in the context of this discussion is a cover for European imperialist asperations. I am not judging it, all I am saying is that there were sophisticated cultures on site. I am not romaticizing American cultures...just that they were here.

 

[Bjorn]

I saw the program and had to bite my tongue not to say Erich von D. five minutes into it.

The last part, when skeptics got to examine his 'evidence' and ask questions about it must have been very embarrassing for him.

Anyone with access to a transcript?

 

[crimresearch]

My girlfriend is an anthropologist by degree, and when they said 'Bimini Road', she bolted from her chair and came back with a textbook on Frauds and Myths...there it was, cleary shown to be natural outcroppings, not Menzies' Chinese built slipway...cites going back for decades showing this.

When it was later revealed that Menzies is credentialed as a professor of modern Portugese literature, and hadn't consulted with people from the disciplines on which he built his theory, it was in fact embarassing to watch.

 

[Iamme]

The other night, Jay Leno joked that he finds it interesting that no matter who claimed to 'discover' America...there were people here to greet the discoverers.

 

[SquishyDave]

It's quite simple, whoever was the boss discovered the land. So if the "native" americans had been able to enslave and rule the newly arrived europeans, then the credit would have gone to them. That isn't what happened though, the newcomers kicked the arses of the people already there, and so claimed discovery rights.

This rule pretty much holds true from the first time an upright ape beat another one for a nice tree that made an excellent bed. For some reason recently this rule has started to be changed, but at the time, they were just following the rules. They won, so they owned the lot.

I am not making a call on the fairness or nastiness of this unwritten rule, I'm just saying that's how it was like, if you conquered, you were right, until you were conquered in turn, then you usually became really wrong.