• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

China finally rules out evidence obtained through torture

Wolfman

Chief Solipsistic, Autosycophant
Wolfman
Joined
Jan 16, 2007
Messages
13,415
Location
Vancouver, Canada
After several recent high-profile cases in which it was proven that innocent people had been jailed based on confessions obtained through torture, the Chinese gov't has finally passed a law that any evidence obtained through torture will no longer be admissible in the courtroom; and furthermore, that confessions alone should not be the sole criteria for conviction...that other evidence should be provided to support the confession. This is to handle situations where, for example, a person is not tortured, but they are threatened by local authorities into a confession, or they confess to protect someone else.

Still a long way to go in China...but at least this is a step in the right direction.

Link to an interesting commentary on the new law, published in the Chinese media.
 
Wolfman said:
After several recent high-profile cases in which it was proven that innocent people had been jailed based on confessions obtained through torture, the Chinese gov't has finally passed a law that any evidence obtained through torture will no longer be admissible in the courtroom; and furthermore, that confessions alone should not be the sole criteria for conviction...that other evidence should be provided to support the confession. This is to handle situations where, for example, a person is not tortured, but they are threatened by local authorities into a confession, or they confess to protect someone else.

Still a long way to go in China...but at least this is a step in the right direction.

Link to an interesting commentary on the new law, published in the Chinese media.
Click to expand...

Are they likely to follow those laws? i really dont know how the chinese government followds its own rules.
 
DC said:
Are they likely to follow those laws? i really dont know how the chinese government followds its own rules.
Click to expand...
Yes, and no.

The Chinese gov't, at the national level, tends to be quite serious about such laws. And intend that they be enforced.

But then one enters the real world. Where at regional levels -- particularly municipal and county levels -- corruption is still rampant, and officials tend to keep doing things they way they've always done them. And there are just so many damn people here that tracking everything to ensure that new laws are properly enforced is a nightmare.

So...on the one hand, its pretty much certain that some local officials will still use torture to coerce confessions. And that some judges will still accept such confessions.

But China's got a very, very active legal community, a number of whom are major activists. They watch such things, and when a local court breaks such laws, they'll bring it to the national awareness (much like the case that initiated the introduction of this law). And the national gov't, made aware of it, will step in and overturn the ruling, punish the judges and officials involved, and demand a new trial.

There are still many abuses here. And the farther you are from Beijing, or the more remote your community, the more likely such abuses are to take place.

But there are also more and more resources to combat those abuses; and more and more people dedicated to bringing those abuses to public light. Knowing about the legions of activist lawyers in China (and believe me, China's lawyers are among one of the most potent agents for meaningful change in this country), the gov't wouldn't have passed such a law without the intent to make it work. But they also know that it'll take time...it ain't gonna' happen overnight.
 
Wolfman said:
Yes, and no.

The Chinese gov't, at the national level, tends to be quite serious about such laws. And intend that they be enforced.

But then one enters the real world. Where at regional levels -- particularly municipal and county levels -- corruption is still rampant, and officials tend to keep doing things they way they've always done them. And there are just so many damn people here that tracking everything to ensure that new laws are properly enforced is a nightmare.

So...on the one hand, its pretty much certain that some local officials will still use torture to coerce confessions. And that some judges will still accept such confessions.

But China's got a very, very active legal community, a number of whom are major activists. They watch such things, and when a local court breaks such laws, they'll bring it to the national awareness (much like the case that initiated the introduction of this law). And the national gov't, made aware of it, will step in and overturn the ruling, punish the judges and officials involved, and demand a new trial.

There are still many abuses here. And the farther you are from Beijing, or the more remote your community, the more likely such abuses are to take place.

But there are also more and more resources to combat those abuses; and more and more people dedicated to bringing those abuses to public light. Knowing about the legions of activist lawyers in China (and believe me, China's lawyers are among one of the most potent agents for meaningful change in this country), the gov't wouldn't have passed such a law without the intent to make it work. But they also know that it'll take time...it ain't gonna' happen overnight.
Click to expand...

sounds good, change does not come overnight and sure not only by laws :)

im happy you are optimistic about it :)
 
DC said:
sounds good, change does not come overnight and sure not only by laws :)

im happy you are optimistic about it :)
Click to expand...
Its a cautious optimism. China has a pattern of taking three steps forward, then two and a half steps back. The steps forward are very encouraging...but the steps backward are frustrating as hell.
 
To illustrate the national gov't's determination to take real action against corruption, and enforce their laws, this article details the execution of Chongqing's top justice official (and a previous chief of police) for corruption, and the arrest/imprisonment of over 100 gov't and business leaders in the same scandal.

This isn't a cosmetic action...this uprooted much of the city's leadership, and involved a crack-down on organized crime that was massive in scale.

While I have major problems with capital punishment for corruption charges, one can't argue that the national gov't isn't taking serious measures. But Chongqing is only one of hundreds of municipalities in China. It ain't all gonna' change overnight.
 
Last edited:
Travis said:
:rolleyes:

Oh, you found out about my brown person torture desires! Whatever will I do now?
Click to expand...

Where did I say it was your desire? Are you going to deny that torture was used to obtain information from suspected terrorists?
 
This is a hopeful sign for China.

EvilSmurf said:
Where did I say it was your desire? Are you going to deny that torture was used to obtain information from suspected terrorists?
Click to expand...

It still isn't admissible. Which is what the OP is about. It did not say that China will never torture a suspected terrorist, did it? It said that evidence gained from that would not be admissible in court.

I hope that clears up your confusion.
 
EvilSmurf said:
Where did I say it was your desire? Are you going to deny that torture was used to obtain information from suspected terrorists?
Click to expand...

Did any of that information ever turn up in an actual US courtroom?

No. No judge would allow it. That's a fact.

If you want to rail against the Tribunals then go ahead but that is a different thing entirely.
 
Puppycow said:
It still isn't admissible. Which is what the OP is about. It did not say that China will never torture a suspected terrorist, did it? It said that evidence gained from that would not be admissible in court.

I hope that clears up your confusion.
Click to expand...
This is completely true. Torture is still gonna' happen in China. Its gonna' happen before trials (just won't be admissible court, and those caught will be punished); and certainly gonna' happen after people are sentenced and sent to prison (for which there are still no clear laws to protect prisoners).

For all the very real problems with torture in Guantanemo Bay, it doesn't even come close to the level of the problem in China. This new law is a big step forward...but its far from solving the problem.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom