Children's movies & Skepticism

[Nyarlathotep]

The last couple of times I have been to the movies lately, I have seen previews for The Polar Express. It looks like a typical kid's Christmas movie and I have largely tuned out the ads, beyond noting that my youngest child wants to see it. I noticed something that sparked a thought this last time, though. There was a scene where the kid is talking to another character who tells him something to the effect of "Sometimes the most real things are those things you can't see" and I noticed another scene where the kid is fervently trying to get himself to 'believe' (in what, I am not sure, but since it's a Christmas movie I'll bet it's Santa Claus related).

Thinking about it, I realized that this is a very common trend in children's movies (and especially Christmas movies). It seems that almost every year there is a movie where some kid has to have his faith in Santa restored, and movies where some kid is taught that he can do some magical thing (perform magic, bring tinkerbell back to life, etc.) if he just believes firmly enough are very common too. And non-believers are portrayed as either idiots or out and out bad people (who more often than not, know full well that magic/Santa/whatever exists, but they just don't want OTHER people to believe, for some reason) in these movies. Even Harry Potter, which I otherwise like, isn't immune to that last effect (though, I will give them credit for not making Harry have to go through some sort of thing where he 'just has to believe" or similar nonsense to make his magic work) by portraying the Dursleys as people who know magic exists, but don't want to be reminded of it, so they treat Harry like dirt.

Given this trend, and given how malleable children's minds are, is it any wonder that we are a nation that is so full of religion, UFO nuts, and other assorted woo-woo types? After all, most of us spend our childhood getting the message drummed in that 'belief' is a good thing and people who don't believe in things they can't see are either stupid, misguided or mean. Do other countries with less of a prevalence of such beliefs have such a trend in their movies (and other entertainment) for children?

 

[phildonnia]

The movie "Labyrinth" was a bad movie, but it did have a sort of "your fantasy world is bullsh!t" theme.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

The movie "Labyrinth" was a bad movie, but it did have a sort of "your fantasy world is bullsh!t" theme.

I don't remember much of "Labyrinth" beyond the cool things that they had David Bowie's character do with that glass globe, but that isn't really my point. If they are goign to have magic, fantasy, etc. in a movie that's fine with me. The thing I don't like is the way that children's movies as a whole tend to drum into kid's head the message "Believe, believe, BELIEVE!" and makes those who don't beleive in things that they have no logical reason to beleive in (skeptics, in other words) look like great big meanies or misguided fools.

 

[JohnF_73]

I think they're more a symptom than a cause.

We've had nutters with us for longer than christmas movies.

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think it's because most people in our culture value faith over reason and want to indoctrinate this same nonsense into children.

 

[Ashles]

Entertainment would be pretty boring if it had to reflect reality all the time.

And kids enjoy kids films because it makes good/evil battles much clearer. I loved CS Lewis, Lord of the Rings (hell, even Dragonlance) and all kinds of fantasy when I was little. Wanting it all to be true doesn't mean you confuse it as such.

Kids want other kids to be the heroes of their stories and it is not so much the magic element that is the important element, but that the kids know stuff that adults don't. This is the same from fairy tales to the Famous Five. The adults won't believe that demons exist/faeries stole the book/the swarthy gypsies are stealing horses etc.
It lets the children think "I could be that hero" for a short while.

Do other countries with less of a prevalence of such beliefs have such a trend in their movies (and other entertainment) for children?

Which countries would these be? I've never noticed any countries as a whole that are particularly sceptical relatively to other nations.

Overall people like an escape from reality but very few confuse their entertainment with reality. How many kids on getting a Harry Potter broomstick for their birthday are genuinely surprised that it can't fly?

 

[JohnF_73]

How many kids got their superman outfit, and hurt themselves by jumping off of high places? (Despite the printed disclaimer "Warning : Suit will not make you fly")

Seinfeld, I'm looking at you...

 

[Nyarlathotep]

Entertainment would be pretty boring if it had to reflect reality all the time.

And kids enjoy kids films because it makes good/evil battles much clearer. I loved CS Lewis, Lord of the Rings (hell, even Dragonlance) and all kinds of fantasy when I was little. Wanting it all to be true doesn't mean you confuse it as such.

Kids want other kids to be the heroes of their stories and it is not so much the magic element that is the important element, but that the kids know stuff that adults don't. This is the same from fairy tales to the Famous Five. The adults won't believe that demons exist/faeries stole the book/the swarthy gypsies are stealing horses etc.
It lets the children think "I could be that hero" for a short while.

Like I said once before, it is not the inclusion of fantasy that I have a problem with. Heck, I am an adult who still enjoys a good game of D&D, so I don't have a problem with fantastic elements in stories. It is the constant message that one should believe in things despite having no reason to do so that is common in these stories that annoys me.

Which countries would these be? I've never noticed any countries as a whole that are particularly sceptical relatively to other nations.

Well, in that sense I am thinking especially of religion, where just about all of Europe is MUCH more skeptical than we are.

Overall people like an escape from reality but very few confuse their entertainment with reality. How many kids on getting a Harry Potter broomstick for their birthday are genuinely surprised that it can't fly?

Yeah, but again, not quite what I am trying to get at. Once again, it isn't the escape from reality that I have a problem with. I enjoy a good escapre from reality as much as anyone. It is something much more devious, a subtle societal message that blind belief=good and disbelief=bad. That is a differnet thing, IMO, than expecting a Harry Potter broomstick to fly.

 

[Ashles]

where just about all of Europe is MUCH more skeptical than we are.

If only this were true. As a UK resident I can assure you that our beliefs in ghosts, psychics, homeopathy, crystal therapy, dowsing etc. etc. are sadly very widespread.

Our religious beliefs may not quite be up there with the US but...
Here is a survey on religion in the UK a few years ago

This survey contains the frankly baffling statictics that:
"one in ten people said they did not believe in God"
yet
"One in two people said they definitely or probably believed in life after death while about one in three said that they definitely or probably did not"

So... some people believe in God but not in life after death?

And they say Atheism is a depressing belief system...

 

[Nyarlathotep]

If only this were true. As a UK resident I can assure you that our beliefs in ghosts, psychics, homeopathy, crystal therapy, dowsing etc. etc. are sadly very widespread.

Our religious beliefs may not quite be up there with the US but...
Here is a survey on religion in the UK a few years ago

This survey contains the frankly baffling statictics that:
"one in ten people said they did not believe in God"
yet
"One in two people said they definitely or probably believed in life after death while about one in three said that they definitely or probably did not"

So... some people believe in God but not in life after death?

And they say Atheism is a depressing belief system...

Well, I will fully admit that my impression of Europe in that regard is based solelyon my own observation and I don't think anyone here would disagree with how personal observation can be flawed at times.

(mine more than others, alas )

 

[LostAngeles]

I deleted the spoiler paragraph, but I do know the orginal story, and it's a nice book. I have to admit, I really like how the animators made the movie look like the book's artwork, but I digress.

In general, it's meant to be one of those sweet little Christmas stories with a moral of "There are special things in the world." This doesn't always mean magical healing crystals, ghosts, God, Buddha. It can mean nebulae, DNA, the biological instincts of us and other animals, atomic structure, math. That's how I take it at least. (Short example: Sure, you may have been made by a God, but I came about by sheer chance and luck. That's fking cool, yo.)

There's nothing wrong with children's fantasy or fantasy at all. Personally I think the supernatural/paranormal/sci-fi woo makes a great backdrop for a story. Just because I know it's extremely likely there's no magic or vampires, doesn't mean I can't enjoy Buffy, the Vampire Slayer, Dracula, or The Lord of the Rings. People can't alter their body chemistry or the chemistry of a liquid with a thought, but that doesn't stop me from digging the original Dune books. (Most of them.)

Sure, when I was kid I fantasized about kicking Imperial (and then Rebel, once I saw the power of the Dark Side) butt and yes, I wanted very badly to go Through the Looking Glass. I also wanted to ride Black Beauty and live in a dugout ...House on the Prairie and so on and so forth.

I really think that if you teach your kids the difference between reality and fantasy, they'll be all right. Give them the tools to make their own decisions.

 

[Goshawk]

I think you're placing too much stock in (a) how impressionable kids' minds are, and (b) how much of an impact Hollywood has on them.

Question: Do you have kids yourself? My kids are now 20, 17, and 14, and my experience has been that movies are, to them, no more than mental penny candy, like a stick of gum for the mind--quickly chewed over, quickly processed, and quickly forgotten.

Now, for me, raised in the 1950s and 1960s, before videos and cable, a movie was a really special event, and being taken to see Mary Poppins or Brothers Grimm or even something like Sound of Music had a proportionately larger impact on me than being taken to the movies had on my kids when they were little. Kids these days see a *lot* of movies, they're bombarded with directorial demands to "believe this!", and I think that unless they're one of those imaginative kids you occasionally encounter who really enjoys believing six impossible things before breakfast, they tend to develop a certain skepticism just naturally. "Aw, it's just F/X..." even kindergardners will tell you.

Also, I would say that movies with precisely the sort of "you gotta believe!" exhortations that you're concerned about are more likely to provoke raspberries of derision rather than a wide-eyed belief in whatever it is. My kids are pretty sophisticated when it comes to discerning when a filmmaker is laying it on with a trowel. Maybe I just raised 'em right.

And no, they never did do anything like assume that a Superman cape enables wearer to fly--but I did.

Actually, it was only a bedsheet, and I only jumped from the back of an armchair.

Didn't work.

And no, I didn't need to repeat the experiment.

 

[alfaniner]

I don't remember much of "Labyrinth" beyond the cool things that they had David Bowie's character do with that glass globe, but that isn't really my point. ...

I believe the guy that actually did the globe stuff was Michael Moschen, whom I've seen on Great Performances (I just happened to come across that tape last night while looking for something else!) Also seen him live in performance -- quite breathtaking and beautiful, some of the stuff he does.

 

[Dr Adequate]

If only this were true. As a UK resident I can assure you that our beliefs in ghosts, psychics, homeopathy, crystal therapy, dowsing etc. etc. are sadly very widespread.

But we have mercifully few fundies.

Dowsing? Is there much call for it in the UK?

It's been said that Aussies are a particularly sceptical nation, somewhere on this thread and indeed the posts seem to bear it out --- known Aussies are, generally, not Sceptics Who Used To Believe Weird Things.

 

[shecky]

The only skeptical kid show I could think of was Scooby Doo. Of course, it features a talking dog (albeit with a significant speech impediment). Despite being set in something of a fantasy world, it had a pretty skeptical outlook on supernatural happenings.

There are a few occasions where i found movies/tv to be annoyingly pro supernatural. The worst/most annoying example was the first Indiana Jones movie which came out when I was a teen. To see this gritty hero battle the bad guys using his wits and strength all the way 'til the end, when the Hand Of God miraculously comes down to save our hero from the evil Nazis. Pissed me off to no end even back then. Jaded my view of fantasy-themed movies ever since.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

I think you're placing too much stock in (a) how impressionable kids' minds are, and (b) how much of an impact Hollywood has on them.

Question: Do you have kids yourself? My kids are now 20, 17, and 14, and my experience has been that movies are, to them, no more than mental penny candy, like a stick of gum for the mind--quickly chewed over, quickly processed, and quickly forgotten.

Now, for me, raised in the 1950s and 1960s, before videos and cable, a movie was a really special event, and being taken to see Mary Poppins or Brothers Grimm or even something like Sound of Music had a proportionately larger impact on me than being taken to the movies had on my kids when they were little. Kids these days see a *lot* of movies, they're bombarded with directorial demands to "believe this!", and I think that unless they're one of those imaginative kids you occasionally encounter who really enjoys believing six impossible things before breakfast, they tend to develop a certain skepticism just naturally. "Aw, it's just F/X..." even kindergardners will tell you.

Also, I would say that movies with precisely the sort of "you gotta believe!" exhortations that you're concerned about are more likely to provoke raspberries of derision rather than a wide-eyed belief in whatever it is. My kids are pretty sophisticated when it comes to discerning when a filmmaker is laying it on with a trowel. Maybe I just raised 'em right.

And no, they never did do anything like assume that a Superman cape enables wearer to fly--but I did.

Actually, it was only a bedsheet, and I only jumped from the back of an armchair.

Didn't work.

And no, I didn't need to repeat the experiment.

Well, I have three stepchildren aged 18,14, and 11 who I have only had a hand in raising for the last four years or so. But their mother raised them quite well long before I ever come on the scene, so they are pretty grounded in reality too.

The point you raised about the "You gotta beleive" meme raising "raspberriesof derision is a good point I hadn't thought of. Though the whole "beleive" thing is very commonin children's entertainment, someof the most successful stuff (i.e. Harry Potter) seems to avoid it.

It's something to think about.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

The only skeptical kid show I could think of was Scooby Doo. Of course, it features a talking dog (albeit with a significant speech impediment). Despite being set in something of a fantasy world, it had a pretty skeptical outlook on supernatural happenings.

There are a few occasions where i found movies/tv to be annoyingly pro supernatural. The worst/most annoying example was the first Indiana Jones movie which came out when I was a teen. To see this gritty hero battle the bad guys using his wits and strength all the way 'til the end, when the Hand Of God miraculously comes down to save our hero from the evil Nazis. Pissed me off to no end even back then. Jaded my view of fantasy-themed movies ever since.

I dunno how skeptical Scooby Doo is. My youngest once pointed out that she doesn't like Scooby Doo because, no matter how many times the ghost turns out to be a guy in a mask, they are always surprised that the ghost is a guy in a mask. They never even take into account that it COULD just be a guy in mask. I think the kid had a point, myself.

I thought the ending of Raiders of the Lost Ark was cheesy too, because it didn't fit the rest of the movie IMO. BUt as I have said before it isn't merely the inclusion of fantastic elements in film that annoyus me, it is the constant repetition of this "You must beleive in things you can't see" nonsense that gets to me.

 

[Spektator]

I've observed that the average American kid has a much better perspective of what is fantasy and what is not than the average American parent.

 

[4458.8Gigahertz]

Nyarlathotep, Richard Dawkins discusses this issue at length in his book UNWEAVING THE RAINBOW. Basically, kids need to be credulous, so when their parents tell them, "Don't jump into the lion cage or you'll be killed..." they believe it and can avoid getting selected for a Darwin Youth Award. Kids are basically built to believe anything their parents tell them.

Now, with such power comes great responsibility. Using this power to cram religious dogma into your kid's head, in my opinion, is abuse. But letting them believe in Santa, the Tooth Ferry, etc, is just good old fun, and it's probably good for youngsters. Such fables and stories help us cope with the huge world when we're small. Most parents do eventually reveal the hoax.

What's embarrassing is when you grow up and still believe in such ludicrous fables *cough* religion *cough cough!!*

 

[LostAngeles]

Nyarlathotep, Richard Dawkins discusses this issue at length in his book UNWEAVING THE RAINBOW. Basically, kids need to be credulous, so when their parents tell them, "Don't jump into the lion cage or you'll be killed..." they believe it and can avoid getting selected for a Darwin Youth Award. Kids are basically built to believe anything their parents tell them.

Now, with such power comes great responsibility. Using this power to cram religious dogma into your kid's head, in my opinion, is abuse. But letting them believe in Santa, the Tooth Ferry, etc, is just good old fun, and it's probably good for youngsters. Such fables and stories help us cope with the huge world when we're small. Most parents do eventually reveal the hoax.

What's embarrassing is when you grow up and still believe in such ludicrous fables *cough* religion *cough cough!!*

When I was about ten and I had pretty much started to not really care about Santa's existence (priority = presents), my mom sat me down and told me Santa Claus was real.

She was Santa Claus. As much as it annoyed me then, it was a good explanation and a good preparation for "What I told you was true... from a certain point of view."

Oh the look she got...

The point is I think she took a good tactic. How it went over with my sister is another story for another time.