Child sexuality (NOT an 'is pedophilia OK?' discussion!)

[Safe-Keeper]

Two days ago, a certain Pia Friis, leader of a daycare center in Norway, had an article in the private daycare center magazine PBL Nytt (see references below) about handling child sexuality in daycare centers. Basically, her stance was that children are by nature curious about the world around them, including the genitals of themselves and others, and that this naturally resulted in experimentation. She stated that when daycare center staff came upon naked children or children, for example, playing doctor or touching each others, this had to be accepted as completely normal, lest children could become ashamed of their sexuality later in life. These games could seem pretty 'serious' and sexual to adults, but that when they were played by children, they were entirely harmless. She did not want active encouragement of these games, of course, just acceptance of them when they happened. Let the four-year olds run around nude, let them touch each others, let them play with each others. She also touched upon the fact that children masturbate.

She also stressed, however, that children could feel a sensation similar to arousal, and that they needed to be taught about limits and boundaries. For example, they had to learn that it was OK and encouraged to say no if they didn't want to be touched, and that genital experimentation was not encouraged by for example groping at your own pee-pee during dinner.

I'm not getting into how the media in Norway spun this into a frenzy of 'OMG PEDO BIATCH WANTS *TEH KIDSEKS* IN OURS DAYCARE CENTERSES WTF JEEBUS WEPT!!!11111' and the outcry from the apparently nonthinking idiots I have to share a nation with. This belongs in a separate thread, perhaps entitled 'Adventures in mass hysteria that would make even Al Gore cry'. Either way I already wrote a blog post on it, and I don't feel up to discussing it at length here. Rather, I want to discuss child sexuality. Is Friis right when she says children should be allowed to experiment? Or is this something that should be stopped whenever discovered?

Personally, I say let them explore each others. To a kid, exploring a pee-hole is not really any different than exploring a hand or foot. It's a natural part of growing up and doesn't do any harm. And, according to Friis, among others, the more natural these things feel early on, the easier it'll be for them to report actual abuse later in life. And without going further into detail, I've got memories from my own childhood.

References
​

Friis' article (Norwegian, PDF Format)
Wikipedia article

 

[-Fran-]

Friis' article (Norwegian, PDF Format)

When I clicked this link I got a power point presentation about men working with kids in day care centers...

Well, as you present Friis' views here though, I think that if you interpret that as being for pedophilia, you really must be someone who wants to see it everywhere.

Of course we are all born with a sexuality, of course kids are curious about all aspects of their bodies, of course it is not good to surpress/condemn/make the child feel guilty or "dirty" about such a natural curiosity. Kids needs to be guided and helped to develop as naturally as possible in safe ways, and that does not include pretending some parts of their development does not exist at all. And it certainly does not include extremes like punishing them for expressing it.

That kids act like Friis describes it seems just natural to me, and she seems to have a sound attitude towards it, and how it should be handled. I agree with her that small kids should be gently taught that it is not proper in all places and situations (just as it is not proper to pee on the floor), and that they should not push it on other kids (just as they shouldn't bang other kids over the head with a toy). But that there must be room for kids to explore.

I fail to see what this has to do with pedophilia at all. People who think it has must be totally hysteric!

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Well, I can see certainly see why it made alot of people uncomfortable and why this person would draw so much ire. It's obviously a very sensitive subject and one that would embarrass many adults, whether they are parents or not.

As understandably uncomfortable as it is to many people to even think about, though, it obviously has absolutely nothing to do with pedophilia.

The only connection whatsoever is that I'd normally be pretty suspicious of an adult babysitter who talked about child sexuality and said they wanted to foster it.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

To the staff: Could a moderator please change the link in the References section of the OP to go here?

I fail to see what this has to do with pedophilia at all. People who think it has must be totally hysteric!

Hehe, I know it doesn't, but the thread title 'child sexuality' could easily be confused with a thread on pedophilia. I've met several people on the web who felt that since children have 'sexual' feelings, it's OK to have sex with them.

That, and a lot of the hysterical people in Norway accused her of being a pedophile, or said that this had to be the #1 best way of gathering all pedophiles in one place. But I should've known people here would be a bit smarter than the average tabloid reader.

 

[The Fool]

I am going to politely request that my child in daycare not be allowed to run around naked fondling other childrens genitals. Seems quite reasonable to me and I hope it doesn't cause her to grow up wierd.

 

[-Fran-]

Hehe, I know it doesn't, but the thread title 'child sexuality' could easily be confused with a thread on pedophilia. I've met several people on the web who felt that since children have 'sexual' feelings, it's OK to have sex with them.

That, and a lot of the hysterical people in Norway accused her of being a pedophile, or said that this had to be the #1 best way of gathering all pedophiles in one place. But I should've known people here would be a bit smarter than the average tabloid reader.

Yeah, I am not surprised that her article might have got that effect, it probably would have in Sweden too. There are quite a lot of people who are prepared to start a war on absolutely anything that even could remind of pedophilia. And there's no way you can discuss things rationally with such people, since, according to them, whatever you have to say against them is the same as you are for kids being sexually abused, and probably that they should be sacrificed to Satan as well It's just a too sensitive subject for some to be rational about, and I can understand that. But if it gets in the way of discussing children's natural behaviour and how to meet children in their natural development, it goes too far, of course.

No sane person would ever get such a thought in their heads that kids natural curiosity about their bodies has anything to do with an adult's perceptions of sexuality. Yeah, pedophiles will use that as an excuse, just as they will use anything they can as an excuse. But to pretend that there isn't a sexual behaviour and curiosity in small children is not the same thing as to having then eliminated the problem with how pedophile's sick minds works.

But I am preaching to the choir telling you all this, I guess

 

[-Fran-]

I am going to politely request that my child in daycare not be allowed to run around naked fondling other childrens genitals. Seems quite reasonable to me and I hope it doesn't cause her to grow up wierd.

As I understood it, it wasn't really about allowing kids running around naked and touch each other. It was about how to handle the situation if kids were found out doing stuff like that. Such as not making such a fuss about it that the children are made to feel they have done something horrible.

 

[EeneyMinnieMoe]

Pedophiles do reason in somewhat similar ways, though. They think that because children are "sexual", it's all right to have sex with them and take it upon themselves to "initiate and encourage" them.

What I find bizzare and sad but oddly very true to life is that many of them actually take on the role of a wiser and more experienced sex-ed instructor to their victims. They explain all their questions about sex and sexuality, tell them about new and interesting things and instruct them on safety, etc. I suppose like an older or more experienced boyfriend or girlfriend or even friend might to someone who hasn't had experience.

Not saying that everyone who tries to inform a child is sick- it's just that it can be a red flag.

 

[-Fran-]

Pedophiles do reason in somewhat similar ways, though. They think that because children are "sexual", it's all right to have sex with them and take it upon themselves to "initiate and encourage" them.

That's true. But no matter how many sick bastards who rationalize their behaviour like this, it would still be distorting the facts to claim that children does not have a curiosity about their own bodies, including their genitals. And pouncing on a kid and pretty much guilt trip, or even scare or punish them if they touch themselves, or poke at another kid, will not make the pedophiles stop their sick behaviours, it will only create a kid who grows up with issues.

Some seem to think that a part of the solution would be to somehow teach small kids to act in a way that would be unattractive to pedophiles. They can't, there's no such thing. A pedophile does not work that way. He victimizes the kids he can, and rationalizes his behaviour afterwards.

What I find bizzare and sad but oddly very true to life is that many of them actually take on the role of a wiser and more experienced sex-ed instructor to their victims. They explain all their questions about sex and sexuality, tell them about new and interesting things and instruct them on safety, etc. I suppose like an older or more experienced boyfriend or girlfriend or even friend might to someone who hasn't had experience.

It's sad all right, and horrible, but not really strange. First because it is of course easier to manipulate a victim that you can make feel safe at first, and create a "friendship" with, and second because they project all about themselves onto the victim.

Not saying that everyone who tries to inform a child is sick- it's just that it can be a red flag.

Yes, as you said above:

I'd normally be pretty suspicious of an adult babysitter who talked about child sexuality and said they wanted to foster it.

Yeah, I'd find that more than weird too . But as I understood the article above it's not about encouraging this particular natural behaviour in children in an active way. It's not telling kids to take their clothes off and start touching each other. It's not about "fostering" it. It's about how you should act if you find kids doing things like this, and since kids ARE curious and it is natural that they want to check their bodies and its reactions out, they will, sooner or later, do stuff like this. Friis talks about how you should view the situation when it happens, and how you should handle it. She doesn't say that you should "create" the situation. She are not saying either that a kid's environment should be so restricted that such situations would be impossible to occur, because that would be to restrict them too much on the whole.

That's how I read it.

 

[Kaylee]

Well, at what point do you start teaching kids about public behavior vs. private behavior?

 

[Bikewer]

I haven't done any serious reading in the area of paraphilia for a long time, but some years ago I read through a lot of the late John Money's stuff on the subject, as well as forensic sexology.

Money maintained that it was in good part our societal suppression of these childhood explorations that was a causal factor in the high incidence of paraphilia in "Western" society.

He mentioned a group of people (sorry, it's been over 10 years) who do not suppress these explorations, and said that the incidence of paraphilia amongst these people is virtually near.

(paraphilia being known more colloquially as fetish...Voyeurism, Exhibitionism, Transvestism, etc.)

 

[The Fool]

As I understood it, it wasn't really about allowing kids running around naked and touch each other. It was about how to handle the situation if kids were found out doing stuff like that. Such as not making such a fuss about it that the children are made to feel they have done something horrible.

Well for the amount I pay for daycare I think they should be able to manage a level of supervision that keeps the kids clothes on and thier hands out of other kids pants...

 

[tkingdoll]

Well, at what point do you start teaching kids about public behavior vs. private behavior?

Yes, this is a good point. When I was small I used to make 'nice feelings' happen 'down there' and at some point my mother would have noticed this and said with horror "don't do that! it's not something people do in public" or whatever. It wouldn't have been her words about not doing it in public that taught me, it would have been the telling off. She also told me not to pick my nose. I still pick my nose, I just don't let anyone see me.

I mean, society does not allow for public masturbation or the fondling of another's genitals. And the earlier a child learns that some acts and parts of the body are not appropriate for public view, the better, surely? If you let children think it's OK to fondle each other where they can be seen, don't they grow up thinking that such behaviour is perfectly normal? It's not. Society ain't that liberal.

I think it's extremely important not to tell children "no! that's dirty! don't touch, only bad children touch there". If that's her point then groovy, but she seems to be saying that adults should tread on eggshells around children and treat it like it's acceptable public behaviour, lest they give them a complex later in life.

What is her evidence that children who are admonished for public displays become 'ashamed of their sexuality later in life'? Are Norwegians sexually repressed? Is it a problem? Is there a population issue? Is there any evidence for the reverse, that children allowed to freely express their sexuality without being asked to keep it private grow up with expectations that do not match societal norms?

 

[Soapy Sam]

Funny. We know so much about the sexuality of bonobos and mountain gorillas and still have our heads firmly up the wrong opening about our own.

I don't know much about kids, except from having been one.
I remember playing with my bits when I was four or five and being endlessly fascinated by the tendency of my willy to change size. I was also fascinated by my belly button, for some reason. I had a rich fantasy life which I was totally unaware at the time was sexual, featuring ladies in diaphanous costumes and Maid Marion in tights. I blame the British Christmas pantomime for much sexual confusion and my persisting fixation with shapely thighs. Exposing tender young minds to this cross-dressing stuff is deeply confusing .

Maybe the best way to compile a detailed understanding of child sexuality is for everyone to write down what he / she felt , thought and understood about sex as a kid and post it on the Net. I bet it would be both hilarious and informative.

 

[King of the Americas]

I recall, the "I'll show you mine if you show me yours", game. I also remember the first time my baby sitter caught me winking my dink, I must have been 4 or 5. I remember her smiling and telling me I had to wash my hands before I came to the table for lunch.

I also recall stumbling across my father's Playboy collection, and thinking that cleavage or the butt-like appearance of two breasts pushed together was a place I wanted to put something... I even went as far as dropping a toy down my baby sitter's shirt, just so that I could reach for it. She was not fooled by my cleaver ploy.

That said, I can't say that any of this had any connection in my mind to 'sexuality'. I was a kid exploring my body, and the darker regions on girls.

It is also really hazy, but I seem to recall a game boys and girls played at my school in the 4th or 5th grade, where a boy would masturbate and leave the "smell'ens" somewhere and then tell his girlfriend where it was, and then she would reciprocate by doing the same. It is very weird... I think it was also around this time, when a girl would let you feel her cherry...and if you broke it you had to marry her in a playground cermony of sorts. She then got to use your crayons anytime she wanted.

To this day, I am not sure if any of this actually happened. Memories of my childhood are like broken images of a movie you are dozzing in and out of, with no real memory of the subject or theme of the movie, just a few scenes and character images therein.

 

[Dancing David]

I am going to politely request that my child in daycare not be allowed to run around naked fondling other childrens genitals. Seems quite reasonable to me and I hope it doesn't cause her to grow up wierd.

I think that the main idea is to not freak out and threaten them with flogging and damnation. You gently ask them to put their cloths on and remind them about 'private places', I certainly hope that Frain has it up front in the day care pamphlet so people can choose.

 

[Dancing David]

Well, at what point do you start teaching kids about public behavior vs. private behavior?

About the time they punch you in the groin or start pinching, it depends on their verbal skills.

 

[Kaylee]

Well, at what point do you start teaching kids about public behavior vs. private behavior?

Yes, this is a good point. When I was small I used to make 'nice feelings' happen 'down there' and at some point my mother would have noticed this and said with horror "don't do that! it's not something people do in public" or whatever. It wouldn't have been her words about not doing it in public that taught me, it would have been the telling off. She also told me not to pick my nose. I still pick my nose, I just don't let anyone see me.

Yes, my mother pretty much said the same thing -- although I was lucky enough that she said it in a calm and matter-of-fact way.

I mean, society does not allow for public masturbation or the fondling of another's genitals. And the earlier a child learns that some acts and parts of the body are not appropriate for public view, the better, surely? If you let children think it's OK to fondle each other where they can be seen, don't they grow up thinking that such behaviour is perfectly normal? It's not. Society ain't that liberal.

I think it's extremely important not to tell children "no! that's dirty! don't touch, only bad children touch there".

Agreed.

To desexualize the question so to make it easier for some to think about it in a calmer way -- I've noticed that many parents start telling their kids at a very young age about "indoor voices" and "outdoor voices".

I don't see why teaching kids about public vs. private behavior shouldn't be treated in a very similar matter-of-fact way.

I think that the main idea is to not freak out and threaten them with flogging and damnation. You gently ask them to put their cloths on and remind them about 'private places'

I think that works also.

 

[kellyb]

Let the four-year olds run around nude, let them touch each others, let them play with each others.

If that's really what she said, I think that might be going a bit too far.

Really, what will warp children is unknown at this time as far as I know. Obviously, there are extremes...like...telling kids that they're bad and dirty for touching themselves is unhealthy.
Encouraging sexuality in little kids would be sick.

But what about little kids playing with each other like that?
I don't think anyone really knows one way or another right now. (I'd be happy change my mind if I missed something.)

I think calmly emphasizing that those kinds of things are private, and to be explored alone, is reasonable. If you "catch" kids doing that, don't flip out over it. But I don't think you should exactly let them continue, either.

Or maybe I'm just a prude.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

If that's really what she said, I think that might be going a bit too far.

Really, what will warp children is unknown at this time as far as I know. Obviously, there are extremes...like...telling kids that they're bad and dirty for touching themselves is unhealthy.
Encouraging sexuality in little kids would be sick.

But what about little kids playing with each other like that?
I don't think anyone really knows one way or another right now. (I'd be happy change my mind if I missed something.)

I think calmly emphasizing that those kinds of things are private, and to be explored alone, is reasonable. If you "catch" kids doing that, don't flip out over it. But I don't think you should exactly let them continue, either.

Or maybe I'm just a prude.

That depends. What do you do when you "catch" adults doing that?